Another hour in the office

[alpineart]

These will be future Bonsai ,yes as Dario said "no rest for the wicked", i bolted before the cook got out of bed and copped the flack when i returned .I dug these in Half an hour

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, all but the tree in the black pot has brilliant roots as they are chop tops .This gives the tree the incentive to throw feeder roots close to the base ,The potted tree which is very doubtful has no feeder roots as i wasn't cut being to small a few years ago .Potted and slotted

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and its off

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into the grow area , a quick cuppa and its off for a forest group .

[alpineart]

This is the typical root mass of a Pinus Nigra Chop top

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.Whilst i haven't the experience with other species of pine chops this is the reason i prefer to collect Yamadori Nigra Austriaca chop tops . When i collect and style in the same period this is the reason behind my approach .The roots have the power to recover from a good hacking .Cheers Alpineart

[Craig]

another awesome haul Alpine , the last tree looks very good

[Kyushu Danji]

Hey alpineart,

Do you not find the pines suffer if you remove the soil directly in contact with the roots? I have read so many times about keeping the soil around the roots of pines because of keeping micorrhiza intact or something. I know you do this sort of stuff all the time though, so has it made any real difference?

[BonsaiPanda]

Hi Kyushu,
If you get a chance read Walter Pall's comments on Ponderosa Pines and bare rooting. I will try and find the link.http://bonsaistudygroup.com/general-dis ... pine-1029/

Regards Panda

[Kyushu Danji]

Very helpful, thank you BonsaiPanda!

[alpineart]

another awesome haul Alpine , the last tree looks very good

Hi Craig , a touch yellow due to the intense rain over the last year , but other than that magic specimens , the big bloke has a 70mm trunk .Cheers Alpine

[alpineart]

Hey alpineart,

Do you not find the pines suffer if you remove the soil directly in contact with the roots? I have read so many times about keeping the soil around the roots of pines because of keeping micorrhiza intact or something. I know you do this sort of stuff all the time though, so has it made any real difference?

Mate throw those books to the shari house and get out in the field and try a few hundred .Written literature is not exactly field trials nor is it constant repetitive work .Its usually copied from old written material or here-say from another Author. If i was to leave red clay on the roots it would most certainly rot the roots in no time .All my collected pines up here are bare rooted by me .All are potted up with added Mycorrhizea hand fulls of the stuff in every pot and i loose very few .If the soil they are collected in is free draining then maybe i would be inclined to leave a bit around the roots .Most pines up here have very little Mycorrhizea around the roots close to the base as it doesn't seem to like the sticky clay .

More bacteria/micro lives under the leaf litter or needle compost which is a long way from the root system .Cant beat personal experience over that written material .They say you cant trim and style a tree until 1-2 seasons after collecting yet i do it quite often .They say , They say , try it and then you will definately know , but dont just try it once try it a hundred times ,They say pines should be repotted every 3-5 years , up here i repot every year and so does a more experience member up this way .We discovered independantly by ourselves that they wont last 3-4-5 without a good root prune , year works very well . Won't find that info in any book not even the D. K Bible . Mate i still have difficulty digging Monterey/Radiata pines and keeping them alive , tried many times now i concentrate my efforts on the Nigra's and consider i'm wasting my time with Radiata's .Hope this helps . Cheers Alpineart

[alpineart]

Hi Bonsai panda , thanks for posting that link , however i disagree with some of the info . As W.P has stated the Method the Americans use doesn't work in his Climate , yet it works here in mine .I collected 15 Ponderosa Pine here all of the same parent tree and in the same clay soil .Of that 50% were bare rooted and the other were left in the light yellow sandy clay with added Mycorrhizea and scoria .The bare rooted trees are still alive the others went wheels up with 6 months . Now i don't get 10 days rain in a row , nor do i get snow that requires a plow to move so therefore i don't take W.P methods as gospel in my climate .People grow trees in the bottom of the town here , yet they will not grow at my place some 200m higher if the do they most certainly don' t thrive like in the town proper .Each area has to be treated differently be it 200mm different in elevation or 1000klms away as do mediums and watering regime and fertilizing .Cheers Alpineart

[Kyushu Danji]

Hey alpineart,

Do you not find the pines suffer if you remove the soil directly in contact with the roots? I have read so many times about keeping the soil around the roots of pines because of keeping micorrhiza intact or something. I know you do this sort of stuff all the time though, so has it made any real difference?

Mate throw those books to the shari house and get out in the field and try a few hundred .Written literature is not exactly field trials nor is it constant repetitive work .Its usually copied from old written material or here-say from another Author. If i was to leave red clay on the roots it would most certainly rot the roots in no time .All my collected pines up here are bare rooted by me .All are potted up with added Mycorrhizea hand fulls of the stuff in every pot and i loose very few .If the soil they are collected in is free draining then maybe i would be inclined to leave a bit around the roots .Most pines up here have very little Mycorrhizea around the roots close to the base as it doesn't seem to like the sticky clay .

More bacteria/micro lives under the leaf litter or needle compost which is a long way from the root system .Cant beat personal experience over that written material .They say you cant trim and style a tree until 1-2 seasons after collecting yet i do it quite often .They say , They say , try it and then you will definately know , but dont just try it once try it a hundred times ,They say pines should be repotted every 3-5 years , up here i repot every year and so does a more experience member up this way .We discovered independantly by ourselves that they wont last 3-4-5 without a good root prune , year works very well . Won't find that info in any book not even the D. K Bible . Mate i still have difficulty digging Monterey/Radiata pines and keeping them alive , tried many times now i concentrate my efforts on the Nigra's and consider i'm wasting my time with Radiata's .Hope this helps . Cheers Alpineart

Thanks for taking the time to respond. So your answer is basically try, and try on a massive scale in order to gage what works? Sounds like I will be needing lots of land now..

[alpineart]

Hi Kyushi , mate try a few with differing mediums . then try a few more different different again , but always repeat your tests and trials, if you get good results repeat it not once or twice but 5 times . Sooner or later you will find the best method for your Approach .Can't do it in a single season because there wouldn't be enough variables .I have never experience 4 foot of rain in a season until last season , yet up north they can get 8 feet .Humidity this year was like QLD and they coped tonnes of rain .The list goes on for variations in weather, climate , rainfall , mediums ,etc, etc .

It has taken me 15 years to find out how to get an orchid to flower at my place , yet an old girl in the town proper has had my old collection flowering in the masses for the last 10 years .She has actually been here to see what the devil i was doing wrong , couldn't find a fault with the method but it didn't work . I have 1 with spikes now but i wont hold my breath that the bugger will burst into full bloom .

You don't need tonnes of land to trial /test tree's but you need to track your progress .I only do this in my head BECAUSE only do it for myself , however take plenty of pics ,if i need the reference all i have to do is look through the album to see the results , thats if a don't keep loosing them on the computer .I had 18000 photo's of all the Bonsai work i have done until the last 2 computer became boat anchors and i lost 8500 pics , thats 4-5 years work erased but i remember what worked and that the main thing , because i tested and trialed it time after time after time until i got it right .Cheers Alpine

[Dario]

Thanks for all that information Alpine, very interesting mate!
That sure is a healthy root system on the pine in the wheelbarrow!
Why do chop tops produce feeders closer to the tunk? I ask because I take it you haven't done any prep on the roots (just top chopping)...so the tap is still attached and I am just curious as to why you think they produce feeders in a tight root ball after being top chopped? (just trying to learn as much as poss).
Also, when you add the micorrhizia, where are you sourcing it from? Is it a purchased inoculum? I ask because you stated that in the sticky clay soils the pines don't seem to produce much in that environment. So how do you end up with handfuls of it? I have found very little micorrhizia when collecting radiata, and I want to get my hands on some to ad it into my pine soil mix etc to increase the health of my favourite species.
Also, do you collect any of the surface needle litter with the bacteria and micro organisms and add it to your pine soil mix? (is it beneficial?)
Thanks mate, keep up the good work!
Dario.

[Luke308]

Alpineart: More bacteria/micro lives under the leaf litter or needle compost which is a long way from the root system

That sums it up nicely. In my experience I've found little clumps just under the needle leaf litter also rather than amongst the clay type soil here in Adelaide also. Maybe that is just how it happens here in Australia?

[BonsaiPanda]

Hi Alpine,
I posted that link as with everything it is general information. I totally agree with you that each specific area has its own needs, with climatic/atmospheric/soil/rain characteristics. I am also trialling different soil/mediums to see what works and what does not. The info on Radiata seems a little sketchy at best, so we best get cracking and get a database of good information for the masses.

Regards Panda.
PS: I have got a thousand pines to experiment with, and have a contact for the general manager of the State Pine Forestry locally. I hope to get some great information on propagation and care from him.

[alpineart]

Hi Dario ,mate i need a week to type all the answers . Chop a tree and it appears to interfere with the natural growth pattern .First the tap root goes down to anchor the tree , then the 3-4-5 stay roots radiate out to stablize the tree and stop it falling over .It seems to be a regular occurance that when you cut the top off the bottom is not required as a purpose to hold the tree,meaning the tap root has already done its job so the stay roots take over and the feeder roots appear on them first .If the tap root strikes a solid object it shoots of side ways and feeder roots appear above the bent tap root .I you collect 2 trees 1 chopped the other not in the same area the unchopped tree would in most cases have little or no feeder roots to collect .Rocky ground , terraces , cliff faces all supply good roots because the tap root is usually interfered with by rock and the feeders seem to develop many times quicker than a tree growing in light open soil .This is only my personal experience after collecting several thousand pines from many area's and soil conditions .

Mycorrhizea is the mould/bacteria that grows in decaying leaf litter and pine needles as well as other foliage material .I have several Cedars and Douglas fir tree's in the yard all producing this Mycorrhizea .The Douglas fir produces a yellow coloured Mycorrhizea and the Cedars produce a white coloured mycorrhizea .I predominately used the white Mycorr' as it seems to have to best result .i have had little or no luck using the Douglas fir {Yellow }material in pines yet some species of pines up this way produce a Yellow Mycorrhizea naturally .I believe Mycorrhizea repels water during the day and allows the roots to absorb moisture during the night .Dig around the base of these garden trees during and it will be quite dry underneath sometimes dusty and at night it will be some what damper .

If i collect a tree that has plenty of Mycorrhizea around it i most certainly add a handful to the collection bag .I have and do add needle compost to the mix as i have it on tap so to speak .Again it repels moisture to a certain extent and keeps the mix from becoming over wet . As with all my tree's they are now planted in 8-10mm minus soft red scoria 60-70% and aged pine bark 20-30 , the pines and conifers get a hand full of composted needle litter or Mycorrhizea from the garden added to the mix .Basically its all natural as i couldn't afford tonnes of commercial material .Every season the fines are washed out and the blend re-used , this save 1-2 cubic meters of mix at repot time .All the fines are added to the grow beds which in turn makes them very healthy .

Now all this info is personal experience and works here , i dare say it would work in other places however "Don't" take it as gospel .No doubt some will disagree , but i don't agree with a lot of people at the same time ,however i test their methods if i think they have a process or method i have not tried or heard of , if i can benefit from it ..Not looking for controversy in any shape or form especially on Ausbonsai .Cheers Alpine