Got a Black Pine today, Need help!

[Average_joe]

Hey guys.

So i got this plant today (Japanese Black Pine)



Its 3.5 years old, grown from seed.

My question is.... What now? Ive read many book and stalked the forum here but i only know how to maintain and 'grow' the pine. How do i turn this into a good Bonsai to begin with? I cant get my head around how i can promote more branch grown and/or bring the growth back to the center of the tree...

I know this is a bad question, i actually brought this tree to plant and have as a seed tree many years down the track (im only 25) BUT now i have it i figure i may give it a go. (if it is do-able) Its really what i want to do anyway...

Any advice would be great... I do have a specific Black Pine book on the way which should answer most questions. But what should i do now?

Thanks guys

[AndrewM]

My suggestion would be to stick it in the ground and wait 10 years to thicken up the trunk and develop. As for back budding it is possible but the tree needs to grow.

[Utamaro13]

You could wire it up and and make it a knotted mess and turn into a shohin bonsai. Do a search for a post topic titled "How to grow good bonsai stock like the Japanese nurseries" and scroll down to Jow's post from 21 May 2009 @ 7.40pm and read through it all as this is full of great info. This will give a good idea of what you can do now with your bonsai and also help you develop your skills.

[kcpoole]

I vote with Utarmo on this one
Far too tall and straight with no low branching to make a good bonsai out of at present

JBP take about 10 years I thing to grow the cracked mature bark anyway so needs a long time

I wrap with raffia, and apply wire, bend to a pretzel and p[ut in the ground or Large pot fro the next few years. You will have to remove the wire next year or tho

See my tread on twisted Juniper which was inspired by Jows posts
viewtopic.php?f=131&t=6410&p=73618&hili ... per#p73554

Ken

[Mitchell]

Before reading the comments, first thing that sprung to mind was "Twist me twist me!!".
I'd bend that little guy so not even it knew which way was up.

Personally I think you will find it hard to get good compression at this thickness, without some inspirational binding and bending. You'll find though, even with minimal compression of the tree, you bring the sparse foliage in closer to the trunk. So what now looks like some lanky branching with a couple of neat turns, becomes stout interesting branching closer to the trunk.

[Average_joe]

Thanks guys! This defiantly gives me some options...

Ive got one question left... How do i plant it in the ground and let it age for several years without it growing 30ft tall? Like can i use some sort of grow box or something in the ground to restrict its growth and just let it age naturally?

See im moving over seas in next 2 years and then wont be back for several years. SO i can plant it at my parents place in southern highlands (sorta like its natural climate?) and then come back to it in several years time to turn it into a Bonsai... Ill just need to stunt its growth some how so i dont return to a 20m tall tree lol So how do i go about that?

[Bretts]

Others may not agree but if you stick to that schedual I would wire twist and compress over the next two years. First reducing to the first branch so that it is a single trunked whip. Maybe repot in this time as well?
But before you leave remove al wire and I would put it in a decent size pot (not to big though ) and just let it go (as long as you have some one to water it every few days at least)
Otherwise just let it go in the ground with a tile under the root ball and instructions to trim back the branches every winter. Should be interesting when you get back.

[Average_joe]

This sounds like a good idea! My problem is im super beginner and bending like that is WAY out of my expertise... For the time being anyway. I hope if i plant it as you state to do so, by the time its ready ill ALSO be ready (also picking up a Fukien Tea next week)

So tile under root and branch prune in winter... Sounds easy enough! Lets hope my old can take care of it well enuf for me!

[Craig]

,also, if you plant the trunk Slanted then it will be easier to utilize a branch for the new leader when reducing the tree..

[Average_joe]

Thats a really good idea Craig! I think that might be a good option

[garywood]

AJ, growing black pine is one of the most challenging things in bonsai. Without a plan for what you want, from the begining, a lot of time and potential growth can be wasted. Do you want a short fat , tall skinny with movement, short with movement, informal with taper. Depending on waht you want to grow will determine the correct training method/technique. Knowing that they will bud on older wood will give you choices for whichever style of tree you choose. Choices that aren't even there yet but will come with time and technique. Time is the operative word here. The more time you're willing to invest, the larger and more tapering tree you can get.
The pine on the table with the pruners for scale is 10 years old. http://thingsofwood-gary.blogspot.com/
Wood

[Average_joe]

I DO have a plan, in my head at least for what i want. My real idea is for a InFormal Upright, stunted. I dont want a HUGE tree so stunted would be favourable...
Recommendations?

[Average_joe]

Looking at your blog i like the idea and that of Craig's. Think ill plant at an angle, let it age say 10 years then cut it back to a thick trunk with a new leader, that way i can get what i want most from it

HUGE thankyou for the advice!!!

[garywood]

AJ, the most common method for getting backbuds is to cut. But, if you cut, you are limiting growth potential. Backbudding is a survival/defense mechanism. There is a standard model to describe physiology, do a little reading to help understand. It would take too much time and space here. A trees cambial growth is controlled primarily by ratios of Auxin, Cytokinin and Sugar. Manipulating these ratios are what we do in bonsai. So, if any of this triad is deficient, cambial growth is minimized and the tree slows growth. To induce a survival/defense reaction and not slow growth much, I like to manipulate the Sugar aspect of the triad. In fall after growth has slowed down but not stopped, remove some needles and leave large buds. The large buds are the engine driving the tree. There's a little more to it than that but that should get you going and buds will start popping in Spring. Feed black pines in training twice as often, even in fall and early spring as long as it gets sun.
Wood

[Average_joe]

Thanks Gary. Thats the most in depth info ive gotten
I ordered a JBP Bonsai book from the US apparently its like a bible for the pines. Im hoping it will answer some of my more confusing questions, like you said.
Thanks for the advice