Cedar ground growing advice needed

[MattA]

I have been ground growing a Cedrus deodara for the last 2 yrs and am planning on leaving it in the ground for atleast a few more to thicken the trunk further and develop the foliage pads.

Given how finicky cedars can be about having their roots worked, I am wondering if I should dig & replant it this spring to try and keep the roots a bit closer to the trunk. Or would it be better if I just spaded sections around the tree now and did the remaining sections at a later stage ( maybe autumn 2011)?

Thanks in advance

Matt

[craigw60]

Hi Matt, Deodara are much more forgiving than atlas cedar, I think if you put the spade around it once yearly to encourage feeder root it will be fine.
Craig

[Makkanan]

On the atlas cedar, Craig you mentioned they are less forgiving..... I have an atlas in a bonsai pot that's a bit of a 'telephone pole' as one club member put it Seems quite happy and healthy, but it's going nowhere at 70cm.... And given that they are so slow growing I thought I'd better put it in the ground or a large nursery pot.... otherwise the best I could hope for is a well-ramified telephone pole. Would you advocate ground or pot, given their capriciousness? And how much should I deal with the roots? Cut back w/o breaking ball, break root ball a bit but don't prune, or both?

[craigw60]

Makkanan, You need to sort the roots out before you grow the tree on or you will end up with a root system that is really hard to sort out. I reckon its probably better to grow the tree in a box as you will probably be wanting to train it a bit at the same time. One of the old members of BSV who grew lots on atlas cedars used to grow them all in poly boxes and practically mulch them with dynamic lifter over the growing season, his trees romped away.
Craig

[MattA]

Hey Craig,

Thanks for the advice, I had heard deodar are more forgiving about root work. This is actually my mums tree so I am a little more wary about stuffing it up. It has come along so well since turning up near death 2 yrs ago, trunk has doubled in size and the pads have all filled out with regular pinching as growth extends. I pruned out the last few straight bits of each branch and also reduced the pads more at the top than bottom so it builds taper into the trunk as it grows.

Another couple of years should see this one well on its way to being a good bonsai. It bears some beginnners mistakes but otherwise I am very happy with how it is coming along. I am planning on wiring a few branchs that are not quite where I want them heading, the rest will be shaped using clip & grow methods (my prefered).

Matt

[Makkanan]

Craig et al.... thanks for the information. To me it's as much about getting the balance: yes, roots need to be sorted out, but how to do that without over-disturbing those species which don't like their roots mucked around with? Of course this is why everybody recommends getting an early start on a whip or sapling.... but when it's sufficiently mature (and has had no prior root training) is it better to have a healthy tree with a terrible root structure or a near dead one with a great developing nebari? Does that make any sense?

[nealweb]

Craig et al.... thanks for the information. To me it's as much about getting the balance: yes, roots need to be sorted out, but how to do that without over-disturbing those species which don't like their roots mucked around with? Of course this is why everybody recommends getting an early start on a whip or sapling.... but when it's sufficiently mature (and has had no prior root training) is it better to have a healthy tree with a terrible root structure or a near dead one with a great developing nebari? Does that make any sense?

Or put another way do you want a b-grade tree for the rest of your life or will you risk loosing it in the hope of achieving an a-grade tree?

[craigw60]

When you buy advanced nursery stock its inevitable that you will have to do the kill or cure root prune. Not at this time of year, the guy from Bsv told me to repot them on the hottest day of the year so I repot my cedars in the summer. I have never lost one, sometimes they sulk a bit and drop lots of needles but always recover. I would say you are probably being a bit over cautious. While atlas cedars have a reputation for being a bit touchy they are more than capable of taking a good hard root prune and pulling through.
Craig

[Makkanan]

Neal--- yes, that about sums ups the damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't-ness of it all. Craig, thanks for the tips....will certainly wait until summer then.... maybe will do some radical twisting now, with a possibly sufficent heal by February? Your advice is much appreciated...atlas cedars especially were a mystery to me....often hard to autopsy between mites, roots, etc...second only to mugo pines in the bad luck category. Will give them another go......