Collected Elm

[Raniformis]

The field elm post got me inspired to do a quick dig but this is where my horticultural knowledge fails. Where would you cut, what would you keep and should I get rid of that large root.

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Plan1.jpg

I'm thinking something like this but all ears from those in the know. Just keep the two trunks and cut back the rootball?

[Raniformis]

I don't see a great deal of bud on either of those trunks, not where I'd like it anyway, maybe I should just concentrate on getting it rooted/healthy and think about the cuts next season.

[Akhi]

Elms grow very easily, and you have nothing to lose. I would suggest you cut where I have marked red and use that thin branch as your new leader to grown on for the next couple of years to encourage root and callus growth. You can make other decision in due course.
I would also cut the long thick root closer to the trunk so it kind of becomes part of your nebri when smaller roots form from it

[shibui]

Elms bud very easily. Not only from old nodes on the trunk but also from exposed cambium so we expect to get some new shoots on the trunk and, usually, lots in a ring around the cut at the top.

Be warned though. Most new buds on chopped trees emerge closer to the top rather than all the way up and down the trunk. If you want shoots you can use in a future bonsai cut where you think you'll want those new leaders and branches. There seems to be little difference in survival of elms when cut short or left long.
Roots respond in a similar way. 90% of new roots will grow direct from the cut end of any roots so best to cut where you want to see the roots start to divide. There seems to be very little difference in survival rates for trees where roots are cut short and those where roots are left long.

Consider what you would like to see in future from this tree.
Single trunk - follow the cuts marked by Akhi.
Taller tree - leave some of the thicker trunk.
Other - make your own decisions.
Remember that you can always cut shorter in future but any bits you chop now can't be put back.

[Raniformis]

@ Akhi: Yeah okay, I hadn't considered using that branch as a leader. My plan was to bifurcate both trunks at the cut point and roll from there. Thanks for your input, opens my mind to the different options.

@Shibui: That's what I wanted to hear, buds at the cut point. Do you think I've gone low enough for a finished tree around the 80cm mark (main trunk is sitting at 30cm).

[Raniformis]

Cleaned the roots up and popped it in a basket, unfortunately they weren't as nice as I'd hoped.

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Now I'm confident they'll bud well, I'll put a cut in that secondary trunk just below the second branch and get rid of the first branch.

[shibui]

Do you think I've gone low enough for a finished tree around the 80cm mark (main trunk is sitting at 30cm).

A rule of thumb is generally first branches at around 1/3 of total height so 30cm chop for a finished 80 cm tree is in the ballpark. That obviously presupposes a trunk thick enough to match the height.

If you plan to keep the branch on the right in the pics it's a long way up the main trunk to the next branches (assuming any new shoots will be close to the chop) and very little taper in that main trunk. I usually try to develop trunks with each successive section a bit shorter and thinner than the section below. If it's somewhere around 10 cm to the first branch I'd be aiming for a little less than 10 to the next branching - ie chop at around 20 or a little less.
Note that's only theoretical so you can go longer or shorter and may still get a good looking tree.

[Akhi]

Adding to what has been said, one of the other key things to think about is the Nebari. As a starter I always found it very daunting to cut too much out of a starter tree like yours. But in the subsequent years I have had to bite the bullet and shorten the roots to make the nebari good or at least reasonable and also to fit the tree into a pot proportional to its trunk.
So now I have a few trees which I have to do root work after the branches and trunk have all been settled… A far riskier thing to do than if I had done when the tree was a stick like yours is.
See pic below of what I would do to the root structure if I was planting it now after the experiences I have had. That ensures no crossing roots and ramified rootless closer to the trunk. Have been inspired with what Shibui have done to their trident maples which is well documented in one of their threads. This is not to say what you have done is wrong as bonsai is an art and every artist is correct.

[shibui]

Totally agree with early root shortening rather than leaving it to later.
As mentioned earlier, there's no real difference in survival or a root sprouting new roots whether you cut it short or leave it longer.

[Raniformis]

Thanks for the replies guys, much appreciated.

I'm finding collected trees a little daunting atm, I struggle to put a vision together on moving from stump to beginning a bonsai.

I certainly did cut the roots back before potting up, it's one of the first things that occured to me with collected trees, might as well get rid of the mud and clean the roots up straight off the bat because you only have to do it later anyway.

Is it fair to say I can treat most deciduous trees the same way? I've got a few more to dig over the next couple of weekends.

[Raniformis]

Yeah there's a few well spaced buds swelling along that trunk Shibui, I did a mock up on the direction I was thinking to take, figure I can always cut back at a later date when I see what it throws at me.

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Personally I think this is a little too short but the drawing comes in at 60cm. For anyone else who's beginning their bonsai journey, I found drawing the tree on grid paper extremely helpful for gaining a little vision on how things might go.

[TimS]

Yeah there's a few well spaced buds swelling along that trunk Shibui, I did a mock up on the direction I was thinking to take, figure I can always cut back at a later date when I see what it throws at me.
20240730_173031.jpg
Personally I think this is a little too short but the drawing comes in at 60cm. For anyone else who's beginning their bonsai journey, I found drawing the tree on grid paper extremely helpful for gaining a little vision on how things might go.

Love the idea of drawing on grid paper and drawing to-size as well to help with the imagery of it. It's always an aspect of bonsai i've struggled with, and i'll be pinching this idea off you for the future

If you can take the tree in the direction you've drawn you'll be onto a winner, very much natural lines there with the heavily upward primary branching, slow taper to the upper crown and using the lower branches to fill out the silhouette. I think for many people the temptation to pull growth down is strong, and it becomes more 'bonsai' than it does 'tree' if you follow my meaning.

Don't be tempted to rush it to your desired height is my advice, focus on hitting those height levels for the canopy to allow for the gentle taper, and with a tree that large fewer primary branches that hold more foliage tends to be a much better image than a tree congested with little bits here and there adding volume. But i'm preaching to the choir, your drawing is the path to a wonderful tree.

Your drawing is of a relatively young in tree terms and vigorous tree with all growth heading skywards. Depending on how aged you want the tree to appear (i mean you might want the vigorous look as your style) , don't be afraid to throw a few branches heading in odd directions in too your drawing is perfect, and nature doesn't do perfect, so a contrary downward, or crossing branch or two can add significant impression of age to the tree in the end as it hints at years in the past when other factors influenced the tree's habit. Also a little more flattening of the tip growth as you get to the silhouette will give the impression of being even more aged. Your tree though, and just my own suggestions you're more than welcome to ignore

Don't worry about making mistakes either, elms are weeds and within a very few years a branch mistakenly removed can be regrown, or the area filled back in again.

[shibui]

Yeah there's a few well spaced buds swelling along that trunk Shibui, I did a mock up on the direction I was thinking to take, figure I can always cut back at a later date when I see what it throws at me.

The buds volunteering further down the bare trunk in welcome but doesn't happen every time. Cutting back further at a later date is always an option but does tend to add extra years to the project.

Personally I think this is a little too short but the drawing comes in at 60cm. For anyone else who's beginning their bonsai journey, I found drawing the tree on grid paper extremely helpful for gaining a little vision on how things might go.

Love the idea of drawing to scale to see what a design might look like but your drawing still looks relatively tall and skinny to me. Tim has already commented that it has the form of a young, vigorous tree with low branches (compared to the height and spread) and a long, tall canopy. Main branches heading out at wider angles is one feature of older trees but that alone will just make the trunk look thin. I suspect that reducing the height of the upper canopy as well as changing the branch angles would enhance the perception of age and also emphasise the scale of the trunk.

Just my 2c. I'm aware that no 2 people will see or appreciate the same vision so more than happy for you to follow your own plan.

[Raniformis]

@TimS: Thats okay, I welcome everyone's knowledge and ideas. I much enjoyed your field elm project.

Thanks again to all who posted, I'll endeavour to keep the thread updated.

[TimS]

@TimS: Thats okay, I welcome everyone's knowledge and ideas. I much enjoyed your field elm project.

Thanks again to all who posted, I'll endeavour to keep the thread updated.

Thanks mate, it's always flattering to hear people enjoy my tree

There was an English Elm grown by Treeman that an old member i used to keep in touch with purchased off him that i think would be a good reference tree for you going forward. Much narrower canopy than my field one, and probably what i would try to grow if i were starting an elm again.


If i can find a photo of it I'll pop a photo of it in here.