5 pine urban yamadori - aka destined for the tip

[Akhi]

I have got my hands on five big pine trees yesterday which were destined for the tip. They have been in the yard last night as we are stuck in lockdown in Meb. Unfortunately they have all been pulled out of the pot and don’t have much soil around the roots. Trees look healghy but roots are all tangled, rootbound and I suspect didnt have much potting mix in the first place.
Should I just plant them in potting mix with some perlite added and wait for it to survive before doing any rootwork or should I go hard and do the footwork now? Any guidance much appreciated. Will post photos in due course. I have been doing some reading since 5 this morning and understand that pines needs some old soil but have also read where people wash their roots too! Also read that some roots need to be left on I disturbed when doing footwork so a bit confused.

[Ryceman3]

Without photos I’m just guessing but you say they look healthy, and given they were destined for the tip and now is a pretty good time for root work on pines I’d be doing a proper job on them.
Otherwise, what do you end up with? They might survive but the roots won’t be any good for bonsai from what you describe… and they were getting thrown out anyway. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
Without pics though, like I said, this is all just hear say.

[shibui]

Everyone has had different experiences with pines hence the variety of opinions on how to deal with them.
Many of those experiences are a single instance that has persuaded the grower one way or the other. Others are generalized from a lot of experiences and are more likely to be accurate.
Most of the opinions on pine root work is based on the fact that they usually have a fungal association with the roots and people are frightened they may die if the fungi is removed. I have had no problem bare rooting container grown pines but I have not tried washing the roots clean. Even if most of the mychorizza is removed at repotting it quickly grows back from any threads remaining on the roots. It even seems to colonize fresh mix when I germinate pine seedlings so removing mychorizza does not seem to be a valid reason for not bare rooting pines. It has also been noted that pines don't actually need mychorizza to survive. It is just gives them a little extra assistance to obtain nutrients in really poor soils but when nutrients are provided they can do quite well without it.
You can make what you will from that and decide how to tackle the roots.
Pines do seem to recover better from root pruning if they have some intact terminal buds. That means not trimming every branch when transplanting. if you need to reduce the tops take out entire branches but leave some intact to help recovery. You can always reduce long ones after the trees are recovered.
Pines don't seem to grow new roots as well as some other species so it is probably better not to absolutely slaughter the roots when repotting.

having said all that I am now wondering if the trees you have are really pines. It seems an unusual species for general suburban gardeners to have in pots so some photos showing clear shots of the bark, needles and tip buds as well as an overall shot will be a great help in working out just what you have.

[Akhi]

B13F0B99-C5D0-4847-AC4A-38D70936DFD4.jpeg

[Akhi]

7BA872B9-8748-487A-A034-A4F4B9281026.jpeg

[Akhi]

Thanks for your advice, Ryceman and Neil, I got the trees into pots for now, the mix was a simple potting + coarse sand mix and now fingers crossed for a year! I did some rootwork but not extensive. Will have to do more in future reporting if they survive. The roots were all circling around and I cut the long roots where there was a smaller root already hopefully that doesn’t do too much damage.
Attached are before pictures. And the potted pictures, unfortunately didn’t take the after pics of the rootwork that I did. Not a lot of movement in the trunks and all but I guess that ok with pines is that correct?

[Akhi]

261F1EE3-259E-46C5-90DE-FD286F957346.jpeg

DB526E19-667A-462E-B1EF-07CE35EB3066.jpeg

B28407BB-5674-4008-B384-87B2BDB12DD0.jpeg

10C93E49-BAD8-4920-93E1-90ED80BF1CD3.jpeg

510A2F8A-5899-49A0-91A6-4AF3900DC9F4.jpeg

[Akhi]

And this is what the roots looked like

C7BFAF1B-8BBE-4D18-A35E-A014826A5962.jpeg

A26D2B0E-FFFE-45BB-9106-36A0BA09C384.jpeg

6D5775E0-0705-4481-9C38-B3C425D5BBDE.jpeg

B31E2742-A835-4E12-9D17-2662C44C96A1.jpeg

[KIRKY]

That’s a nice haul of Pines.
As your new to this, suggest as they will be going into grow boxes/ pots anyway. Why not just comb out the top layer of roots because they will be the ones you will keep over the years if you do a good job. And just lightly trim any of the longer stuff to fit into your pots. Then next year when you have more experience/ confidence you can re pot do proper root pruning and go from there. Plus next year they should be healthier roots with soil more intact around them.
As another option.
Cheers
Kirky

[SquatJar]

You're right that most don't have a lot of trunk movement but I still think there's plenty to work with. Incredible score considering they were going to the dump!

Nice bark forming, some low shoots that may be workable, and the ones with shoots only at the top look like they could work with an elegant design. Do you know what species they are? A close up of the pine needle fascicles will help us ID if you don't know.

Fingers crossed they pull through for you. I'd be leaving them alone til Spring 2022.

[TimS]

Plenty of very nice material there.

I think there is an obsession with having low movement in everything, a nice straight trunk with some delicate branch work can be far move beautiful than a trunk that looks like a piece of spaghetti that's been dropped on the floor.

[Akhi]

I tried straightening some of the roots that were curling around but a couple of them just broke off so then I abandoned that option and as you mentioned wait for winter of 22 to do more rootwork and feed and water through 21-22.
I don’t know what pine it is so appreciate if you can identify it. From the pictures attached of the needles.

E2A84F25-FBC9-4FA9-AC66-116E8D209C3D.jpeg

FD50A639-3778-4A4E-971B-20B22F43D686.jpeg

81EA8D84-97D4-46BC-9DBC-F3AB5AFC906A.jpeg

[SquatJar]

Looks like radiata, but I'm not a pine guy so wait for the experts to confirm or deny

[Ryceman3]

I probably would have gone harder on the roots but I don’t think what you have done isn’t valid. It’s a solid plan and I think your trees look pretty healthy, so should work out OK.
3 needles per sheath = Pinus Radiata (Monterey Pine)

[Akhi]

Have been going through pine bonsai videos for the last 3-4 hours! great way to spend the lockdown weekend I say. Just wanted to summarize what I learned about pines which is different to other trees…
1. I need to let the branches keep elongating if I am to have any form of backbudding.
2. The potting mix needs to be very porous (mine is not that good at the moment the .
3. Bending pines is easy as in they don’t tend to break or even if the do can be easily mended.
4. They need to be fed a lot but that impacts the length of the needles so I have to do a growth spurt followed by maintenance which as I understand it takes at least three years before all needles will become small.
5. Decandling is to be done to ensure the branch doesn’t elongate and to increase density.
6. There are pines which have a single flush and a double flush and the second flush has better smaller needles! ( is the Monterey pine a single or double flush pine)
7. It will take a bloody long time to get a half decent pine bonsai so I may just have hit the jackpot in getting those trunks which are about 6-8cms diameter at the base where the trunk meets the roots.
Thank you all for chiming in about what to do with the pines, I have now actually got my hands full with the junipers, wisteria, maples and now these pines! Need more room!!