Apple tree?

[pureheart]

Hello my Bonsai fellows,

I need your wise advice and opinion...
I have this little stump which I separated last spring from the main tree, as you can see from the pictures (I hope) there are three shots at the same level and one at a higher level... I know that doesn’t look like much but I have the feeling I could do something cool with this... as plant it in a bigger pot and make the branches root or something ? Does anyone have an idea of what I could do and if it’s worthwhile?

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[shibui]

Apples can make great bonsai. They are hardy and respond well to bonsai techniques. Flowers and fruit grow from small permanent spurs so they will flower even though we are constantly pruning.
Crab apples seem to make better bonsai than standard fruiting apples, mostly because of the size of the fruit. Fruit does not reduce much in size so a bonsai Granny Smith tree will still grow 6cm or larger apples when it fruits (you could just enjoy it flowering and then remove the apples before they get too large) Crab apples come in a wide range of flower colours and fruit size and colour. I prefer to use the smaller fruiting varieties purely because the perspective looks better when the tree has apples hanging.
There are some great shohin sized apple bonsai as well as larger sizes. Suitable for many different styles of tree too.

Your apple is a long way from being impressive bonsai but it is only a year old. How to develop this as bonsai will depend on the size bonsai you are aiming for.
For a small, shohin sized tree you might prune away the dead stump then wire and bend one or more of the long branches to set contorted trunk shape. Grow for a year or 2 to thicken the trunk then start pruning to develop branches. Steven has shown a really nice shohin crab apple on some of his threads if you need inspiration.
To grow a larger bonsai I would give it a chance to grow to thicken those skinny trunks then look at finding a suitable tree shape to work with. Use either clip and grow to manage shape and taper and/or occasional wiring to direct shape and add bends.
Not really much else we can offer at this stage.

[Watto]

I think you have a stump with character and you should make the most of it. Shibui is correct in his comments and I would be trying to make a shohin if it were mine.
I have a couple that are similar to yours that I dug a couple of years ago and I will start their journey in winter of this year. I am a strong believer in giving dug trees (yamadori) a couple of years to recover before starting the bonsai journey.

[pureheart]

Yes it’s a crab apple. I was thinking to do something different than the usual grow, bend and style... please look below picture do you think this tree would be worth to try this? I don’t have that many branches but...

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[shibui]

Apples will really suit such a root connected clump style. They sprout new shoots low quite readily and root well when shoots are in contact with the soil.
Just some observations on the drawings:
Clump as drawn appears quite symmetrical - almost round. I would suggest that aiming for wider than deep would give a better result. Also break up the symmetry a little to add randomness to the composition - different spacing between, different thickness and heights of trunks always seems to look better in groups however, similar shapes does unite any group setting. Try to get complimentary curves or bends into all the trunks.

Looks like a great project.

[pureheart]

Apples will really suit such a root connected clump style. They sprout new shoots low quite readily and root well when shoots are in contact with the soil.
Just some observations on the drawings:
Clump as drawn appears quite symmetrical - almost round. I would suggest that aiming for wider than deep would give a better result. Also break up the symmetry a little to add randomness to the composition - different spacing between, different thickness and heights of trunks always seems to look better in groups however, similar shapes does unite any group setting. Try to get complimentary curves or bends into all the trunks.

Looks like a great project.

Thanks Shibui! So do you think that 4 branches would be enough? Should I wait till spring before planting? Should I cut some bark on the bottom side of the branch that will be in contact with the soil? I'm planning to build a low profile wooden box to plan this, is this the correct way? I'm also thinking that I shouldn't be using the usual mix (diatomite, coir coco pear and Orchiata Bark), I think I should be using normal organic soil mixed with diatomite for aeration so to allow the branches to root easily (given that this mix would be wetter than my usual). Am I right in my assumptions and is this the correct way to go?

THANK YOU!

[shibui]

4 is not impossible but is usually difficult to arrange attractively. That's why there is a 'rule' of uneven numbers of trunks. Even if you manage to pull off a good 4 trunk design you'll have to put up with all the knowitalls telling you it is bad bonsai simply because it has 4 trunks so does not conform to bonsai rules - probably not worth the risk (design wise, not the knowitalls )
There's still a good chance of getting more shoots as you work. That will usually give you a better range of trunk thickness which is vital Of course, even if no more pop up, you can always remove the worst trunk eventually and end up with a 3 trunk clump.

I prefer spring repot but there are increasing numbers talking about successful autumn repot. I doubt you will achieve anything extra by repotting now.

Removing bark should speed up root development but I would not bother at this stage. Most apples root very easily. It will be years before these skinny shoots become trunks and almost certain they will root without treatment in that time. If I'm wrong and there's no roots in a coupe of years go ahead. Those shoots look quite thin so there's a chance that attempting to remove bark could accidentally break or compromise the flow of sap.

I don't think there is any need for special potting mix. I just use the same mix for all pots. If it is good enough to grow roots in bonsai pot it is good enough to grow roots in a grow box.

Many are using shallow containers to train shallow roots. I have not found that necessary. Good root pruning technique gives even better roots I have never had any problem reducing roots on apples. They can take considerable root reduction if necessary so do not fear growing larger or deeper roots. That can be solved without problems later. Shallow containers can dry out easily and can have other problems. Plants usually grow better in deeper containers.

There are many correct ways to achieve the same result in bonsai. These are just my opinions. You are welcome to try different options, especially if you think they may give better results for you in your area.

[pureheart]

4 is not impossible but is usually difficult to arrange attractively. That's why there is a 'rule' of uneven numbers of trunks. Even if you manage to pull off a good 4 trunk design you'll have to put up with all the knowitalls telling you it is bad bonsai simply because it has 4 trunks so does not conform to bonsai rules - probably not worth the risk (design wise, not the knowitalls )
There's still a good chance of getting more shoots as you work. That will usually give you a better range of trunk thickness which is vital Of course, even if no more pop up, you can always remove the worst trunk eventually and end up with a 3 trunk clump.

I prefer spring repot but there are increasing numbers talking about successful autumn repot. I doubt you will achieve anything extra by repotting now.

Removing bark should speed up root development but I would not bother at this stage. Most apples root very easily. It will be years before these skinny shoots become trunks and almost certain they will root without treatment in that time. If I'm wrong and there's no roots in a coupe of years go ahead. Those shoots look quite thin so there's a chance that attempting to remove bark could accidentally break or compromise the flow of sap.

I don't think there is any need for special potting mix. I just use the same mix for all pots. If it is good enough to grow roots in bonsai pot it is good enough to grow roots in a grow box.

Many are using shallow containers to train shallow roots. I have not found that necessary. Good root pruning technique gives even better roots I have never had any problem reducing roots on apples. They can take considerable root reduction if necessary so do not fear growing larger or deeper roots. That can be solved without problems later. Shallow containers can dry out easily and can have other problems. Plants usually grow better in deeper containers.

There are many correct ways to achieve the same result in bonsai. These are just my opinions. You are welcome to try different options, especially if you think they may give better results for you in your area.

Thanks Shibui, I understand about not needing a shallow pot but I would need a wider pot to have all branches in contact with the soil? i still need to build a wood box for that, is it correct?

[shibui]

Yes, absolutely true. I had forgotten we are discussing a raft or root connected clump, just the 'low profile' comment
Container size will need to be wide enough to take the proposed spread of the new trunks but could be larger to allow some more room for extra roots to promote growth. As I get older and the back complains more I tend to focus on minimum sizes for containers rather than maximum.
How large are you planning?

[pureheart]

Yes, absolutely true. I had forgotten we are discussing a raft or root connected clump, just the 'low profile' comment
Container size will need to be wide enough to take the proposed spread of the new trunks but could be larger to allow some more room for extra roots to promote growth. As I get older and the back complains more I tend to focus on minimum sizes for containers rather than maximum.
How large are you planning?

Thanks Shibui I’m thinking 50 by 45 and probably 15/20 cm deep... does that sound reasonable, correct?


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[shibui]

I don’t know how big the tree is or how big you want it to get so it is difficult to be definitive about the size of the box you need.
Grow boxes can be any size that is convenient. No set size or ratio. Just build something that looks right.

[pureheart]

I don’t know how big the tree is or how big you want it to get so it is difficult to be definitive about the size of the box you need.
Grow boxes can be any size that is convenient. No set size or ratio. Just build something that looks right.

Thanks Shibui, Come Spring I will pot and post an update
When I plant it should I wire the branches to give some movement?