G,day to the folks that know about such thing's as copyright. I have been perusing though the pages of the Kokufu Book number 81.
As usual the tree's are stunning. To those that do not know the Kokufu exhibition in Kyoto Museum is the pinnacle for the amateur , Bonsai in Japan.
To be selected is like being picked for the Olympics or winning the grand Final.
Any way when I was looking at the pictures coz I cant read most of the text just some of the tree names. I noticed some of the RULES had been broken.
Like the first branch 1third up the trunk. There is a magnificent Pinus parvifolia ( Japanese white pine ) formal up right. The first branch though is most certainly less, you are hard pressed to see the trunk and branch separation above the soil.
One example there are numerous deciduous tree's that have branches above lower ones that are thicker. I some in 80 there are tree's that have two head's apexes or crowns, which ever you prefer. Inverted taper. So I was wondering if I was to take pictures and post them what kind of Shari would I be in.
Pup
Last edited by Steven on October 1st, 2009, 11:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
IN THE LIGHT OF KNOWLEDGE ATTAINED, ACHIEVEMENT IS WITHIN SIGHT
I believe as long as only a certain percentage was reproduced and it is for educational purposes then it falls under the fair use policy.
Not sure how different our law is but here is some light reading
4. What's been recognized as fair use?
Courts have previously found that a use was fair where the use of the copyrighted work was socially beneficial. In particular, U.S. courts have recognized the following fair uses: criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, research and parodies.
I will post a picture where anything else will not show the point as well this is a big factor as it is about whether you where to slack to use your own or as in these guys the issue is they are well respected bonsai that you can not go out the back and take your own picture of so it is socially and educationally beneficial to show us the trees
Last edited by Steven on October 1st, 2009, 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It's too bad your in such a hurry cause the stories I could tell you, Bushels and baskets of stories, hole crates full of stories. But if you can spare a moment I will tell you one story.
This is a pretty gray area actually, as I believe the acceptable percentage is 10% or less. The problem is, I also believe photos are under their own copyright independant of the copyright for the rest of the publication. Only posting an image of 10% of one of the photos in a publication would be quite pointless.
It's like using an image from Google Images though. More than likely, you're breaching copyright by doing so.
Posting on my journey into bonsai - http://www.potensai.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; *New*: Software for managing your Bonsai collection - http://bonsaidb.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (Currently in development, sign-up for updates)
Watching and guiding
The bonsaist plans a path
His tree disregards ~ Haiku by Japh ~
Brett I hope you are right because I was thinking of you and the the thread you posted on. Design principles becuase as I said these tree are truly beautiful Bonsai.
Which break ( the rules that are taught to us when we start ) the guidlines. They are never the less beautiful so we shall see.
If Steven has an objection as it is his site. You will just have to take my word for it. Pup
IN THE LIGHT OF KNOWLEDGE ATTAINED, ACHIEVEMENT IS WITHIN SIGHT
Copyright on the net is a bit of a grey area and I am not aware of the legalities being properly tested or explored in Australia... yet.
Permission should always be sought when posting someone else's pictures or writings however (here's the grey part) I understand that if you properly attribute and link (if possible), you don't have to ask permission.
It also comes down to 'web ethics' and 'fair use'. At least that's how we roll round here
Regard,
Steven
Last edited by Steven on October 2nd, 2009, 12:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
Japh wrote:This is a pretty gray area actually, as I believe the acceptable percentage is 10% or less. The problem is, I also believe photos are under their own copyright independant of the copyright for the rest of the publication. Only posting an image of 10% of one of the photos in a publication would be quite pointless.
It's like using an image from Google Images though. More than likely, you're breaching copyright by doing so.
That is interesting because in 2001. A person took photograph's of my tree;s without my permission and posted them on the web and claimed copyright.
When he was challenged he said he was protecting me so they would not be used in a porn shot .
There is a person selling seed's on Evil bay from Western Australia. Using images of my tree's that he got from the web also. He use's them to advertise his seed' even grass tree seed. Which if you know anything about them and there growth rate. 1 metre in 70 year's. Why would you buy them.
Any way off the point I wish to post about 3 from a book of over 100. that is only 3percent
IN THE LIGHT OF KNOWLEDGE ATTAINED, ACHIEVEMENT IS WITHIN SIGHT
When I fix the retic tomorrow and I am taking the pic of the watering can I will post. I will attribute them to the appropriate Kokufu book and page number.
Do you think that will be sufficient Pup
Last edited by Steven on October 2nd, 2009, 12:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:Removed quote
IN THE LIGHT OF KNOWLEDGE ATTAINED, ACHIEVEMENT IS WITHIN SIGHT
Edit: posted after the last couple
I am no expert Pup but I feel there has been much too much fear of copyright infringement on the Internet forums. I only see the publishers of the book getting benefit from such an exercise by way of advertising their product. The pictures could always be removed if the publisher thought otherwise.
Japh I always thought there was a percentage rule but never a percentage of a picture
The article seems to state otherwise though
Fair use allows consumers to make a copy of part or all of a copyrighted work, even where the copyright holder has not given permission or objects to your use of the work.
I also feel it is one of those things that it is better to decide yourself as asking the operator of the forum to make exact decisions could be problematic in giving them some one to blame. Mistakes could be made and it is much safer for a forum operator to just say no in a very broad context!
Last edited by Bretts on October 2nd, 2009, 12:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
It's too bad your in such a hurry cause the stories I could tell you, Bushels and baskets of stories, hole crates full of stories. But if you can spare a moment I will tell you one story.
This is probably why the Koreshoffs did not allow photography of their trees Pup among other things.
I would think if you where inclined you have several options as far as Ebay goes get hold of a contact address(few options such as buy some seeds ) Send them a diplomatic letter asking them to pay you money or remove the pictures from their listings or you will report them to ebay. If this fails or is not to your liking contact ebay and report the pictures as copyright infringement. I would think they would reprimand the seller and even ban them if they persisted.
Not sure how the guy that took the pictures himself is using them but that would be slightly more complicated again send a letter asking to cease or pay money if this fails you would have to proceed to court I would think(depends if the site is his as you could complain to the owner again) If you have proof that he stated he is protecting you from them being used in porn then I would think this would weigh heavy in your favour but he may claim it is his artistic shots of your trees that should be copyrighted not the image of the tree itself which could be a very valid argument as far as the judge thinks.
As I have said before Copyright or Patents are only permission to go to court what happens then is anyone's guess but often the one with the most money wins
It's too bad your in such a hurry cause the stories I could tell you, Bushels and baskets of stories, hole crates full of stories. But if you can spare a moment I will tell you one story.
Thought I would add my two cents because I'm regularly exposed to this and a few things jump out at me when reading the thread.
Frist of all, the biggest problem with copyright on the internet is jurisdiction. If you say were to post something protected on this site, under whose jurisdiction would it fall? You may think Australian, but if the site is hosted some where else it may fall under theirs, or both.
In terms of Australian law, I'm not aware of any global so called 'Fair Use' provision as there is in the USA. Certainly there are specific exception policies, for example the policy on educational use of copyright material. However they tend to be very specific and can be quite strict about what is and is not included.
In addition, these days the author/artist will commonly have signed the rights over to a publisher. Certainly if you infringe the little guy you may just get a polite note asking you to remove the infringement, however if you infringe a big publisher they they can come down hard and it may not only affect you, but the site you post on and it's administrators (think what happens when Film Production companies ping people for pirate media).
These days copyright law and it's enforcement is quite complex, especially on the internet. As was stated above, it's always best (and polite) to ask permission from the owner of anything that may be copyright. If they refuse permission, it's best not to infringe. If they change their mind and request removal, it's best to do so (Note: In Australia anything written [pen or electronic], drawn, played, etc is automatically copyright by the author, artist, composer, etc.)
Hope this helps.
Naym.
EDIT:
In relation to the pictures taken of you trees. The photographer has the copyright on the photographs themselves, as he took them. I'm not sure how that infringes on you as I am not sure you can copyright a tree (perhaps it may count a sculpture of some sort, in which case he has reproduced your work without permission). If you are not covered by copyright you may be covered by something else (e.g. media have to have permission to publish photographs of people and their belongings, which is not copyright law) I'm not sure about this.
Last edited by Naym on October 2nd, 2009, 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In light of all that has been pointed out to me. Even though Steven said OK .
I feel an obligation to do the right thing here by all party's.
So you will just have to take my word for it. Or get copy's of Kokufu numbers 80and 81
Pup
IN THE LIGHT OF KNOWLEDGE ATTAINED, ACHIEVEMENT IS WITHIN SIGHT
If it helps, I noticed quite a few photos from Kokufu in Bonsai Focus issue #121... so perhaps some people could see what you're referring to there?
Posting on my journey into bonsai - http://www.potensai.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; *New*: Software for managing your Bonsai collection - http://bonsaidb.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (Currently in development, sign-up for updates)
Watching and guiding
The bonsaist plans a path
His tree disregards ~ Haiku by Japh ~
You may remember the Message at the end of Broadcasting on the public channels that threatened 5 years imprisonment and or $50 000 for recording a program off the TV. Everyone did it but the threat was always there. I remember a comedy skit that had a guy locked up because he tapped Bambi for his daughter of the TV This was the conundrum that came about from home video recorders. I believe it is still illegal to record programs from the TV to a video or DVD just the same as the copyright law states it is illegal to copy your DVD movies. Same thing really. Now the new conundrum is the Internet we have our copyright infringements up for all to see.
Many international forums have been very strict on using pictures that are not their own yet even quoting some one from a book or even another forum is in the grey area of copyright infringement. Using a picture or a paragraph are not much different. But have you ever heard of one being charged maybe there is but I haven't heard except for the music piracy websites and the like. With some care and consideration I believe we don't have to be concerned about being the guy locked up for recording Bambi of the TV for his daughter. Just playing a bonsai DVD at a club meeting is copyright infringement.
Although I don't know if Australian law has a fair use policy as such you will still find Fair use a major component of the law as this excerpt shows.
The Copyright Act contains many special exceptions that allow the use of copyright material, without permission, for specific purposes.
For example, there are provisions that allow use of copyright material for research or study if the use is fair.
See all the Australian information here but have your law degree next to you http://www.copyright.org.au/
Thats a pity Pup I have in the past and will continue to quote from books and other forums use the occasional picture that is not mine and generally continue to use common sense when it comes to copyright infringment. I truly believe that you posting these pictures increase the chance of teh copyright holder selling more books not losing sales wich is a big consideration when it comes to copyright law.
Last edited by Bretts on October 2nd, 2009, 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It's too bad your in such a hurry cause the stories I could tell you, Bushels and baskets of stories, hole crates full of stories. But if you can spare a moment I will tell you one story.
I don't buy Bonsai Focus anymore I think buying the Kokufu book once a year would be much better value
It's too bad your in such a hurry cause the stories I could tell you, Bushels and baskets of stories, hole crates full of stories. But if you can spare a moment I will tell you one story.
Bretts wrote:I don't buy Bonsai Focus anymore I think buying the Kokufu book once a year would be much better value
Oh really? I have BF issues 121-123, and halfway through 121 so far, I'm absolutely loving them!!
Posting on my journey into bonsai - http://www.potensai.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; *New*: Software for managing your Bonsai collection - http://bonsaidb.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (Currently in development, sign-up for updates)
Watching and guiding
The bonsaist plans a path
His tree disregards ~ Haiku by Japh ~
, Bonsai in Japan. 
