Diatomite

[Homer911]

Anyone know where to get some of the soog stuff that doesn't crumble? I have tried bonsai south, ray's, bonsai environment and Padre Pio. No luck!!

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

[fae]

A few yea s ago I purchased from Enfield produce, maybe send them an email.

Fiona

[Homer911]

Screen Shot 2015-12-29 at 11.47.56.jpg

Anyone use these from Pet supplies? I think the Kleensorb is the one thats not great quality at the moment.

[kcpoole]

Kleensorb is the only Diatomite product available as far as I am aware and the only vendor in Sydney is Enfield produce.
I purchased some 3 months ago and this batch seems to be OK

[melbrackstone]

https://www.worldforpets.com.au/products/13594

This stuff looks very much like the maidenwell diatomite I used to buy. I've got some soaking in water at the mo, doesn't appear to be as full of powder as the Keensorb I bought last year. I'm off for a week, but when I come back I'll let you know how it's gone after being in water for 10 days or so...

Pack says "attapulgite" which is clearly NOT diatomite... but if it does a similar job, that'll be good, cos it's easier for me to access...

[Jhalkhoree]

Bought 2 bags from Enfiled this year and most of it was dust. I had to sieve multiple times to get enought for repotting. However last year the quality and batch wa much better. Just a matter of luck I suppose.

[Homer911]

I bought a bag from Enfield yesterday and it's the first time I have bought Diatomite. It goes to mush when squeezed between my fingers. I presume this is no good for substrait? I didn't even soak it.

[Mojo Moyogi]

Attapulgite is not anywhere near Diatomite, turns into slop very quickly, so unless you are looking for a growing media for water lillies or Swamp Cypress, avoid. Soaks up cat pee though.
Soaking a proposed planting media in water will tell you very little about it's durability as a substrate and is at best a flawed test.

Cheers,
Mojo

[Bougy Fan]

Soaking a proposed planting media in water will tell you very little about it's durability as a substrate and is at best a flawed test.

So Harry Harrington and everyone else who advocates this method don't know what they are talking about Jason ? Have you ever actually used it in a mix or is this hearsay on your behalf ?

I have used Chandler Kitty Litter which is Attapulgite clay and it was fine. I did the soaking in water test and it passed with flying colours. I only stopped using it because diatomite worked out cheaper.

[kcpoole]

Soaking a proposed planting media in water will tell you very little about it's durability as a substrate and is at best a flawed test.
Cheers,
Mojo

Why do you say that? please post links to any research to support that theory, or is it just one of the old wives tales that have perpetuated over time?
Additionally, how would you propose to "test the durability" of the product?


Re this specific test regarding Diatomite, FYI the issue last year with it was that it is quite soft compared to previous batches, and thus does not hold its structure after getting soaked repeatedly. I obtained some of the suspect batch and confirmed that behaviour myself with both Cyclic wetting and immersion tests.
After several days immersion it was mush where the cyclic test over the same period ( a week) showed few problems after drying.

a/ it is quite soft and easily abrades in with agitation, creating much dust and one of the tell tale is the rounded corners to the particles.

b/ that it gets soft and crumbles after a few soakings, and the quickest way to simulate that is to immerse in water for a few days. you will find that once you do so it loses all structural strength and returns to a fine paste with the slightest touch.

PS, The bags that I currently have appears OK after soaking for a month, and have performed as expected in the pot on the 1 tree I have lifted from the pot to check on it

Ken

[kcpoole]

Soaking a proposed planting media in water will tell you very little about it's durability as a substrate and is at best a flawed test.
Cheers,
Mojo

Why do you say that? please post links to any research to support that theory, or is it just one of the old wives tales that have perpetuated over time?
Additionally, how would you propose to "test the durability" of the product?

Ken

Just found this paper that talks about durability testing of
:Combined Effects Of Water Absorption Due To Water Immersion, Soil Buried And Natural Weather On Mechanical Properties Of Kenaf Fibre Unsaturated Polyester Composites (KFUPC)"
http://psasir.upm.edu.my/11900/

I have no idea of what the tested product is, but that fact they do an Immersion, Soil buried, and Natural Weather testing indicates that Immersion is a valid testing methodology for that product so see no reason why it would not be a valid test for substrate testing as well.

Ken

[Homer911]

Did you get yours from Enfield Ken?

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

[Mojo Moyogi]

Soaking a proposed planting media in water will tell you very little about it's durability as a substrate and is at best a flawed test.

So Harry Harrington and everyone else who advocates this method don't know what they are talking about Jason ? Have you ever actually used it in a mix or is this hearsay on your behalf ?

I have used Chandler Kitty Litter which is Attapulgite clay and it was fine. I did the soaking in water test and it passed with flying colours. I only stopped using it because diatomite worked out cheaper.

Hi Mr Bougy Fan.

I took the liberty of using Google to re-acquaint myself with Harry Harrington and his teachings, found this:

http://www.bonsai4me.com/Basics/Basicscatlitter.htm

On the above page, I couldn't find any mention of Attapulgite, I did however find plenty of references to Diatomite. Is it not reasonable to assume that the kitty litter brand being advocated as a suitable bonsai growing substrate by Mr Harrington, is made from Diatomite?

Over to you Harry:

"Very easily available in the UK, I use an own-brand product available from 'Tescos' called 'Low Dust Lightweight Catlitter' (previously known as 'Premium Lightweight'). There are other brands that make suitable bonsai soil (see the updates at the foot of the page) but this is the only one I have direct experience of and can therefore personally recommend."

"To find suitable alternative brands outside the UK, you must be prepared to try a number of products until you find the correct material. This can be difficult, as very few makers of cat litter will display the ingredients on the outside of the packaging!
Avoid all products containing paper, wood chippings or Fullers Earth as these will swell when wet. Also avoid the cheapest clay products as these are more likely to contain unfired clay granules.
Unfired clay granules swell and clump together when wet and crumble when dry. As the granules break down and congeal they will do great damage to the roots of your tree, causing the roots to rot and the tree to die. Watering properly will be virtually impossible. It is of maximum importance that any cat litter clay granules you use keep their structure indefinitely.
To test a new product for its ability to retain its structure, first soak some of it in water for 24/48 hours and check that the granules do not break down. Then try putting the wet granules into the freezer for a few days and see if they retain their structure after thawing out. Reject any products that break apart. To illustrate how strong the 'Low Dust Lightweight' granules I am using are, they are impossible to break between the finger and thumb, even when wet or frozen.
Finally if you have any doubts, use the granules for cuttings and seedlings at first; these will react to anything 'bad' in the soil quickly and their loss can be taken much more easily than if you lose a bonsai.

The method of soil component testing that Harry describes above, is a fair bit more exhaustive (and no doubt effective) than the often quoted on AusBonsai (flawed) "put it in a jar with water, give it a shake and leave it on a window sill" which I was taking aim at in my previous post.

My experience with Attapulgite, specifically Chandlers is:
I trialed it both at 100% and mixed 50/50 with a pine bark based commercial potting mix with about 40-50 stock trees (Junipers mainly, a few Tridents as well) in the early 2000s. The trees were repotted into Chandlers Kitty Litter in September and due to serious breakdown of the substrate (in some instances, to a fine clay paste) in a few months, were repotted again in January into Maidenwell Diatomite mix (which I had been using for a few years). Containers were seed trays and 20cm squat pots. My thoughts on the product as a bonsai substrate both neat and as a component based on the trial were a resounding "don't bother".

The following spring, a former student of mine brought 5 trees to me for repotting. 3 of the trees, 2xJBP and a 30yo Blue Cedar were in a very weakened state, suffering from root rot, due to having spent 12 months in Chandlers. All trees recovered their health when potted into colanders in a better mix, the Cedar was effectively ruined as a specimen tree, due to losing 2 major surface roots from an impressive nebari.

Heresay. PFFT!

I'd like to add that I have been growing bonsai since 1996, working in both ornamental and food production horticulture since 2001, as a Landscape Designer, Manager of Horticultural Operations, Growing Technician, did a rewarding stint as hired gun for a well known Melbourne bonsai nursery and have had plenty of getting hands dirty roles as well. I currently look after almost 1000 bonsai and pre-bonsai in varying stages of development.

Wanna buy a few trees?

http://www.bonsai4me.com/Basics/Basics_Soils.html is worth a read too.


Cheers,
Mojo (Jason if you want to scold me)

[Bougy Fan]

You seem very quick to pass judgment MOJO . I HAVE used Chandlers successfully and related those personal experiences to the OP. I don't need to trawl the internet and post it here to become an "expert' - I get out there and do it. I am also happy for everyone to know my name and not hide behind a avatar.

Checking a new substrates suitability for use starts with a text of water immersion. Perhaps it was unsaid in this post but in many other posts on this site when talking about substrates or fertilisers caution is always advised. What works well for one person in a particular area or climate may not work well for others. Never put your best tree in a new substrate without testing it on a tree or trees you are prepared to lose. Same goes for fertilising. Never follow another members regime without first trialling it at greatly reduced strengths and build it up.

It's just a shame your first post didn't contain as much info as your rebuke post MOJO.

[kcpoole]

Did you get yours from Enfield Ken?

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

Yes
that is the only supplier in Sydney that i know that sells it