Developing a JBP or is it a shohin?

[dansai]

I got this one a couple of years ago as general nursery stock and have chopped it down a few times as the top sections where straight, thick and very long between nodes.

It responded well to a repot and I removed candles a few times over the years as it produces anywhere from 4 to 8 buds around the central one. I have also reduced buds to 2 at the nodes only to have it back bud and form prolific shoots so it has some very dense areas. One branch has good taper, movement and sub branches, 2 have clusters of foliage at the end of long sections and one very short and dense.

I am unsure wether to try and develop a large tree and if so then what should I do with it now, or use the lower 2 branches that have foliage close to the trunk to form a Shohin or semi cascade.

Anyway here are a few pics. Would love advice on possible styling.

Possible Front

JBP - Shorty Front 1.jpg

Possible alternate front

JBP - Shorty Front 2.jpg

Little stumpy branch. Obviously too low in a design for a larger tree.

JBP - Shorty little branch.jpg

Start of a well developed branch. Possibly too low with a larger design. It would be a shame to remove it as it has some character

JBP - Shorty Bottom Branch.jpg

JBP - Shorty under Branch.jpg

And A closer look at front 2

JBP - Shorty Front 2 Close.jpg

[dansai]

One idea I had

Cut or jin at the red line
Bend up in the direction of the blue arrow while twisting so the branch currently at the top front moves down and to the left and the back branch come up to form the new top of the tree. (green arrows)

Front 2 Virt.jpg

Any thoughts?

Or cut at the red for a semicascade or shohin

Front 2 Virt - Cascade.jpg

[squizzy]

Hi Dansai,

I think I would go the little branch you have named "Shorty" as your new leader. The best option for you to get a third angle change in proportion to the tree. Easy for me to say here from my computer though.

Squizz

[GavinG]

Maybe it's a bit early to decide much. Because the branches are so very flat-opposite, it feels that one must go, so that's the step you take. Then put it in the ground and grow it long, to get some girth, keeping side branches to use as the structure of the tree later on. Build a trunk with lots of bends and angles, not just the usual lazy-S in two dimensions. Spend five or ten years making a monster, then dress it up...

Best of luck,

Gavin

[dansai]

Thanks for the replies.

Squizzy, I'm not too sure which branch you mean as the file name for my reference has 'shorty' in it so all pictures say shorty. If you mean cut it like in the 2nd picture named "front 2 virt - cascade" of the second post and use the right hand branch as the leader, then yes I would consider this as possibly the best option. The internode length on the other 2 branches are long, straight and boring and provide little of interest unless the tree is grown much larger.

Which leads us to Gavin's suggestion. Thanks Gavin. If I was to go this road how do I ensure that internodes diminish as the tree grows larger. I have done plenty of on developing shorter needles and compact growth and feel I have my head around that even if my fingers haven't had the experience, but I find it hard to know how to tackle developing a larger tree from this stock and hence the post.

Just some other info on the tree. The base where it meets the soil flares dramatically. At the soil level is about 8cm and just above that and below the first branches the trunk is close to 4.5 cm.

[squizzy]

Hi dansai.

I meant the little stumpy branch in the 3rd photo. I don't think it's to low from my experience. One thing I've learnt is to keep internodes as short as you can even if it means discarding a lot of other good growth. What do you think?

Squizz

[kcpoole]

Using your 1st idea, Can you cut where you have the red line, then tilt the tree to the right at the repot, to bring that branch up?
This will give movement out of the ground in the lower part and a low 1st branch, Then taper into the next 2 sections and movement as well.

Ken

[Webos]

I would have to agree with Gavin that this tree is yet to find its form.
Compact growth is good for providing you with choices later. Techniques for developing short needles is an excellent one to have up your sleeve, but this tree has another 10 years of branch and nebari development before you'd need them.
For now, you might want to put together a plan to develop all of the things that make a good bonsai...movement in the trunk, some branches with foliage in close to the trunk, and a spreading nebari. You mention that you have been chopping it down as it was getting straight and also cutting candles, keep going with that not only on the trunk but also on the branches.. I would also get it onto a big pot... the faster it can grow, the faster you can chop it down in order for it to grow and fatten again.

Adam

[dansai]

Thanks Guys

I think I'll go the larger tree option at this stage. Can always cut back later. So for now I'll look at a repot into a coarser mix with more width. It is in a large pot but I have some big mesh baskets I might put it in. I'll also lift it a little to look at the nebari and post some pictures then.

So do I leave all needles on if I'm going for the grow on option or should I thin them? Each stem has little or no neck and closely packed needles. Some are producing back buds after thinning the summer candles down to 2 and are quite crowded with long needles. I'm not looking to have short needles at the moment and I'm happy for this to be a long term project, but wondered wether there is value in thinning them to allow air and light to the crowded buds, or is it best to leave them to produce energy? Or cut them shorter?

[kez]

Hey Dansai,

Great start with the tree and great thread, there's some good info in here already

If it were me I would be thinning needles still, you want light to get in over winter to activate any buds that are dormant along the branches, and it should also help to keep the top from getting to out of hand. I would let it grow all through spring, then cut back to last years needles in December Jan and get as much back budding as you can.

This will also begin the process of ramification, you can always select favourable branches and cut what you don't want from there in late autumn after your second flush has hardened, if you let it grow unchecked then you might find yourself in a situation where you have those long leggy branches everyone hates and an uphill battle to get buds back closer to the trunk. You could always just select the branches you want from your spring candles and let them grow on without a trim, but I would rather push for 2 flushes instead of letting the first strong flush grow out all growing season.

I would advise against cutting your needles, IMO it is not needed and you will always end up with ugly brown tips. As you said you don't need to worry about needle length yet, so thinning will give you all the benefit you are after without making the tree look messy.

I hope this helps, I think pines are the trees I have my head around the best, but all in all I'mm still new to this so if I'm on the wrong track please forgive me lol

Kez

[shibui]

Sorry Kez I have to disagree. Leave all needles at this stage because needles = energy = growth. The buds will still be there when you cut back. If it had long branches I would concur but this one already has shorter internodes where they are needed I think.

I would let it grow all through spring, then cut back to last years needles in December Jan and get as much back budding as you can.

This bit I do agree with but pines can still be allowed to grow for the whole year and cut back hard into last season's needles the following spring to eliminate the bare necks of previous strong candles and you should still expect good budding.

As with most lining things, usually more than one way to achieve an outcome. Your methods will work as well.

[squizzy]

Thanks Guys

I think I'll go the larger tree option at this stage. Can always cut back later. So for now I'll look at a repot into a coarser mix with more width. It is in a large pot but I have some big mesh baskets I might put it in. I'll also lift it a little to look at the nebari and post some pictures then.

So do I leave all needles on if I'm going for the grow on option or should I thin them? Each stem has little or no neck and closely packed needles. Some are producing back buds after thinning the summer candles down to 2 and are quite crowded with long needles. I'm not looking to have short needles at the moment and I'm happy for this to be a long term project, but wondered wether there is value in thinning them to allow air and light to the crowded buds, or is it best to leave them to produce energy? Or cut them shorter?

Cool keep us updated.

Squizz

[dansai]

Thank you everyone for your feedback. Great info.

In my eagerness to get stuck in to this tree I started to look at what was there and decided to remove some buds as there were masses of them in very close together. It looks like I cut back hard into last seasons growth, probably late summer, leaving 2-3 cm. All the stems I cut had needles to the base, no bare neck. It responded by producing numerous buds around the cut sites. I removed these to 2 but they never elongated. It then has produced more buds at the cut sites and 2 or 3 buds along the stub from between needles.

So I jumped in and removed all but 2 buds, usually leaving one slightly stronger than the other, at the ends of the stems and removed all the adventitious buds along the stem. The internodes where already short and there was already swelling apparent so I thought it best to get it back to 2 so they have room and can be managed. I left as many needles as I could.

The short stumpy branch I removed almost all the buds. There were 3 short branches coming from one point all covered in numerous buds, and more buds forming around the node. It was never going to be anything but ugly. All up probably removed over 30 buds from within 2 cm from each other. I left a terminal bud and thought I might grow this branch out as a sacrifice branch.

So now I want to bend the top section. I have cut a small wedge from where the branch leaves the old trunk. This area was dead anyway and I thought it would help to bend the new trunk up. I will use the stump of the old trunk to hold it up too and either cut it down or use it for jin once the trunk is set. I've tested the branch and its quite flexible. Only problem is I don't have raffia. So I've made do with some synthetic fake raffia like stuff.

string.jpg

Is this OK to use or should I take it off and get the proper stuff before I wrap it in wire?

Well here is how it stands at the moment. All wrapped up and ready for wire.

Shorty wrapped up.jpg

[dansai]

And for interest, heres how it looked when I first purchased it.

Shorty when long.jpg

[kcpoole]

the fake should work OK, but the main advantage with real is that it shrinks when it dries out so tightens on the tree so give better support. Same effect as using rubber tape that is stretches when applied.

if you are only bending a little, then OK but iof you have big bends I wodu use something else IMHO.

Ken