Young Japanese Black Pine

[lackhand]

So I've been doing tons of reading and trying to figure out the best thing to do with this JBP, but they're completely new to me, so I would appreciate a little advice. My goal is to develop this into a medium sized tree, probably 30-40 cm.

What I know:

* lots of needles will help increase the girth
* I need to wire for bends soon
* whorls coming from one spot create reverse taper
* low buds are very important

What I'm working with:

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What I'm not sure of:
* Should I cut back the whorl at the top to 2 shoots now for reverse taper considerations, or leave them all for better growth?
* Should I do anything with the weak buds at the bottom, and the needles on the trunk? How do I encourage budding lower down?
* I've read about wiring and just leaving the wire on until the tree grows over it. Anybody tried that? Recommendations for or against?
* Should I wire now (it's spring here) or wait until fall? It's been in the ground for close to a year now.

Lots of questions I know, and I'm probably overthinking it. I have very little experience with pines though, and I'm not quite sure what to do. Thanks in advance for any help!

[kcpoole]

Good idea to post now and use this as a Howto / Progression thread

You will need to get some shooting back down the trunk as you only want a small tree, the first branch shoudl be about 1/3 the way to the top. To me the way to get one would be to cut the top off below the whorl. ( i will be happy to be corrected tho but that is what I did with the one I have in the ground about 4 years ago).

Once you get some low branching you can let some of them go as a sacrifice to develop girth faster.

As most other species when ground growing, wire and let go mad, Chop select leader then repeat as needed.
the main thing to remeber with Pines is to keep shoots and foliage near the trunk so the branches in the final design do not become leggy and too large.

Ken

[GavinG]

Because you can never cut back to bare wood, tactics are important long term. At any one junction, keep three - one to grow real long and thick, to thicken the trunk, and two kept pinched to keep the the foliage back near the trunk. After a year or two, cut the sacrifice branch out, and repeat the process as you build the trunk. Scars at the back are better. Fertilize and water heavily, if your drainage is good. I'm no expert on JBP, they look at me and die, but best of luck.

Gavin

[bonsaisensation]

What I'm not sure of:
* Should I cut back the whorl at the top to 2 shoots now for reverse taper considerations, or leave them all for better growth?

IMG_3195a.jpg

i'd cut at the lower line for you'd get multiple buds below that. if you are not game enough, then cut at the higher line.
* Should I do anything with the weak buds at the bottom, and the needles on the trunk? How do I encourage budding lower down?

i'd leave all the weak buds, for once you've made the cut, they would begin to grow before all other new buds, which gives them a head start.
* I've read about wiring and just leaving the wire on until the tree grows over it. Anybody tried that? Recommendations for or against?

i personally am against it. i have been told by another experienced pine grower that by leaving the wire in, the wire restricts the widening of the trunk width(the woody part inside), it stays skinny. the downside of this is that, if you were to put more pressure in trying to bend it in the future, it could snap very easily(very much like a corky bark pine).
letting the wire bite in a little, on the other hand, is acceptable.
* Should I wire now (it's spring here) or wait until fall? It's been in the ground for close to a year now.
i'd wait until the new buds emerge and extend a little to pick a new leader to wire and continue the trunkline.

Lots of questions I know, and I'm probably overthinking it. I have very little experience with pines though, and I'm not quite sure what to do. Thanks in advance for any help!

i hope it helps

regards

Tien

[MoGanic]

What I'm not sure of:
* Should I cut back the whorl at the top to 2 shoots now for reverse taper considerations, or leave them all for better growth?

IMG_3195a.jpg

i'd cut at the lower line for you'd get multiple buds below that. if you are not game enough, then cut at the higher line.
* Should I do anything with the weak buds at the bottom, and the needles on the trunk? How do I encourage budding lower down?

i'd leave all the weak buds, for once you've made the cut, they would begin to grow before all other new buds, which gives them a head start.
* I've read about wiring and just leaving the wire on until the tree grows over it. Anybody tried that? Recommendations for or against?

i personally am against it. i have been told by another experienced pine grower that by leaving the wire in, the wire restricts the widening of the trunk width(the woody part inside), it stays skinny. the downside of this is that, if you were to put more pressure in trying to bend it in the future, it could snap very easily(very much like a corky bark pine).
letting the wire bite in a little, on the other hand, is acceptable.
* Should I wire now (it's spring here) or wait until fall? It's been in the ground for close to a year now.
i'd wait until the new buds emerge and extend a little to pick a new leader to wire and continue the trunkline.

Lots of questions I know, and I'm probably overthinking it. I have very little experience with pines though, and I'm not quite sure what to do. Thanks in advance for any help!

i hope it helps

regards

Tien

I concur - Tien knows his stuff.

Mo


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[shibui]

I concur - Tien knows his stuff.

Me too. Tien has said almost what I was going to reply.

Pines are very apical dominant. If the high shoots are still growing those weak shoots lower on the trunk will never grow. You need to prune hard to make them grow.
Wiring will give movement but cannot give taper or thicken the trunk. Pruning will encourage new buds that will promote both thickening and movement.
Pines will mostly only shoot from the base of healthy needles. Needles stay green and healthy for around 2 years. If you don't prune soon the older needles will drop in fall and the chance will be gone.

Pines are one of the plants you only get 1 chance with. You cannot afford to let them grow uncontrolled like we do with maples etc. Pines must be pruned regularly to keep buds in the areas we need to develop ramification later. i know it sound counterproductive to prune to thicken the trunk but it is correct.
I have pruned JBP at all times of the year and they shoot back every time. i think now (your spring) or during summer would be an ideal time to cut.

[Boics]

I've seen the results of both Shibui and Tien.
I'd take this advise!
Good stuff gents!

[lackhand]

Thanks to everyone for the advice. I've seen (if only in pictures) the stock coming from Tien and Neil, so I definitely trust the advice, and it gives me the confidence to do the work.

I will chop it down low today for budding and wait to wire until I get some new buds and can select a new leader.

Glad to hear the thoughts on leaving the wire - I had the same concern, but there are definitely those that advocate it. I'll just leave it just long enough to bite in a little.

I'll post photos as I go. This is very much a learning process for me, with this one as the experiment, as I plan to start some seeds next year and grow a fair number of these. Good thing I have some years ahead of me, because I certainly enjoy growing from seed.

[Neli]

I just nip the top when they are very young and wire crazy....I get lots of new branches. Then I wire the sacrifice branches away not to shade the branches I want to keep.

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[lackhand]

Finally got around to chopping, plus a few extra days for getting around to posting.

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Makes me nervous since I don't have experience with pines, but this should help with that! Updates to follow pending new growth.

[Jason]

Best way to learn is to just do it Look forward to seeing how it goes mate

[Neli]

After you get small branches wire it...but you could have chopped it even lower. Good luck.
Hope you will get something like this:

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[bonsaisensation]

hi lackhand
i thought i'd show you what happened to it after you made the chop. my pine seedlings are one year old and were chopped down aiming for shohin size tree about two months ago(early autumn). everyone of the seedlings budded back down low. so with your warm weather, i am certain that your young pine will bud back in the next couple of weeks.

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regards

Tien

[lackhand]

Thanks for the pics Tien and Neli. That gives me a good idea of what to expect and aim for once I get some new buds growing. Much appreciated!

[lackhand]

Thought I would update my twenty year project. It's been a few months, and as predicted, this thing has responded with buds everywhere! Seems to have slowed down a bit now that the summer heat has arrived, but hopefully I can get some more growth this fall.

tiny pine.jpg

Thanks once more to everyone who offered advice. I'll wire it over the winter once all the growth has stopped.