White pine and cedar forest planting direction

[eliass]

Hi all apologies in advance for the poor quality images my slr has gone walkabouts...

First up is the following white pine

I have had this for about three months.. The needles are way to far from the trunk, there is only one back branch from this view and it has me stumped..

Keen on some experienced members to tell me what they would do with it..

I will eventually get rid of the branch on the bottom left.. But will hang on until the next workshop night..

The other question I have is in relation to a cedar planting I put together earlier in the year. Now it should be said that I intend this to be at least an additional 1/3 its current height. But is it people's opinions that theses should be heavily wired as individual trees or is the bushy triangle effect better?

[alpineart]

Hi Elias , mate the pic of the cedars is a bit blurry but the look like Deodara which with the growth habit will make for a tough ask as a group . The Atlas cedars are a better prospect for group planting as the have smaller needles and the tree's themselves can be maintained smaller unlike the Deodara which is a bugger for getting bigger and bigger each season . With this in mind the need to be set quite a distance apart , within 5 years they will be triple the size just to maintain the grwoth habit . They look good in the early stages then turn to shari . I used my Deodara's for single styles and they to have tripled in 3 seasons so i can expect my 600mm cascade to end up 1.5m long in the tail in the next season and still be very open and leggy . Good luck with these .

Cheers Alpine

[eliass]

Thanks Alpineart they are Himalayan cedar... My first ones infact.... I can see what you mean their growth is very interesting, I didn't come across anything that said that they would be hard to maintain as a group when I was first putting it together.. I will do a bit more research.

[alpineart]

Hi Alias , mate i can't say i have seen a Deodora Forest , probably for the very reason the elongate too much and then you have a big open tree in a short period .I'll do an update on my trainers and that will give you a good idea of the growth habit .

Cheers Alpine

[LLK]

Himalayan cedar or deodar cedar are the common names of the Cedrus deodara. I agree with Alpine concerning its growth.
Had a look at your Japanese white pine: really good material, but has been somewhat neglected. I wouldn't be surprised if it needed repotting. As it's not the right season for that, you could start by simply giving the tree regular doses of fertiliser and Seasol -- especially Seasol, as it's a lifesaver for neglected trees. Secondly, in your place I would start by removing the lowest branches on the left and right, and maybe the second ones as well, since they are underdeveloped. Then I would shorten all the new shoots. Don't cut them back completely to last year's needles, or the whole twig might die. White pines differ from the JBP in that respect. Read Kimura on the subject, in the Book Pines of the Bonsai Masters Series, a book very worth having. See http://www.stonelantern.com/Pine_Bonsai ... b1pine.htm Note that it is sold in Australia as well, by various bonsai nurseries. Anyway, with pruning and good care you should start to see some back budding, and healthy white pines are great back budders! I wouldn't do any further styling for now, leave the tree with its foliage to help it grow.
Some people might recommend slip-potting this tree into a larger pot until it can be properly repotted. I am hesitant on this, as I can't judge of the root system or the soil without seeing them, but I wouldn't disagree with other forum members who have experience on the subject.

Lisa

[MattA]

Hey Elias,
I have to disagree about Cedrus doedara not being good material to work with, the secret to keeping tight growth is constant pinching. These grow alot faster & stronger than any of the other cedar's so need a bit more attention. The white pine needs to get some health back but will make for a great project.

Alpine, heres a link to a great raft deodar & shows how good these can be once you know how to work with them.
http://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATCedr ... yling.html

[eliass]

Thanks for that Mat, great example

[eliass]

Thanks for that Mat, great example

[MattA]

Thanks for that Mat, great example

Your welcome, I found it while researching, as I work with my own deodar viewtopic.php?f=130&t=11326&p=119293

[Gerard]

Hi Eliass,
Matt is spot on, with deadora pinching is the key, often.
Trees should be wired individually and branches kept fairly short.

Lisa has given good advice for your pine, feed it, rotate it to get even amounts of sun, cut bak the new growth tips (but only a little)
I would wait until winter (and hopefully a stronger tree) before removing branches.
It is hard to tell from the pictures, does it have needles in bunches of 5 needles per sheath?

[bodhidharma]

It is hard to tell from the pictures, does it have needles in bunches of 5 needles per sheath?

Interesting, my first thought that this is not white pine.

[alpineart]

Hi MattA , Like i said they get bigger and bigger , take note of the size of the pot for Faisals tree's a man could get a 2 dozen Atlas cedars in there for 15 -20 years . Mathew has a Magic example of a deodora Cedar but a single tree will continue to get bigger and bigger a lot quicker than Atlas Cedars .Elias has 11-12 trunks in a 400mm pot , The pic shows Faisal's tree's i think it a 5 trunk raft and its a 900mm dish . A picture does tell a thousand words

O.k fella's show us your specimens , 1 pic won't change my mind nor my opinion on Deodora Cedars even though a have a dozen here ,and you can cut them back to 1 rosette and they will continue to get bigger and bigger or die back will set in . . There is more good examples of Single deodora than groups and these tree's are usually around the 1 metre mark on average . Its like comparing a Pondarosa Pine to a Japanese Black Pine , if you know how to grow and work them they are all good but the Ponderosa has more restrictions the JBP'S . You cant beat personal experience and I stand by it from personal experience not 1 pic on the net .

I haven't made comment on the Pine as i have very little personal experience with White pines apart from killing my recent purchase

Cheers Alpine

[LLK]

Bodhi wrote:

Gerard wrote:
It is hard to tell from the pictures, does it have needles in bunches of 5 needles per sheath?

Interesting, my first thought that this is not white pine.

Sh...oot! I forgot to check, though the colour didn't look like that of a JWP to me. Just tried to magnify the photo to count the needles, but couldn't see anything conclusive. Maybe more than two, but less than five?????????????
Sorry, eliass, but if it isn't a white pine that changes things. Waiting for your reply!

Lisa

[MattA]

Alpine,
Not here to argue just sharing my own experience with them, C.deodara & C.atlantica can't be compared as they are different, as you yourself state, being different they require a different set of methods & have a different set of constraints. This is my littlun viewtopic.php?f=130&t=11326...

Constant regular pinching helps keep deodar under control but every few years you need to cut the branching back hard, going back to the weak inner shoots & regrow it all again, dieback is an issue when making those cuts but if sufficient wood is left to compensate for it its workable. Despite finding very little about needle pulling on cedars I think it could become a very useful tool to gain additional control over the unruly growth.

As for getting bigger, don't all bonsai? It may be incredibly slowly for some species & with appropriate methods applied but it still happens...

Edit: I will happily give your deodars a new home

[alpineart]

Hi MattA , all good mate , i'm sure you would give them a real good home .

Cheers Alpine