One or two pairs of leaves ?

[Paulneill]

Hi guys.Not that I have any bonsai at this stage but
When reading information on maintaining bonsai I
often find people talking about cutting back hardened of
Spring growth to maintain the shape Of the tree

When people say cut back to the first or second pair of leaves
What exactly do they mean ?
I'm confused
Could someone please explain .

[shibui]

A new shoot grows and then a leaf (in alternate leaf plants eg elm) or pair of leaves (in opposite leaf plants eg maple) sprout and grow bigger. The tip of the shoot continues to grow and other leaves/ pairs of leaves grow as the shoot gets longer. The shoot is often left to grow 4-6 new leaves/ pairs of leaves then cut back leaving the first couple of leaves at the base of the new shoot. Usually this causes the dormant buds at the base of each leaf to sprout and grow into new shoots. Where there was only 1 shoot growing there will now be 2 or 4. Repeat as often as possible to create densely ramified branches.

Hard to explain, easy to show. I'll have to get some pictures....

[chrisatrocky]

when some one says to cut back to the 1st or 2nd set of leaves/ leaf that is exactly what is meant. the 1st or 2nd leaf from the base/ start of the new branch. This helps create more branching, shorter internodes and smaller leaves. As a branch grows each new leaf is larger than the one previous it so by cutting back to the 1st or 2nd leaf you are only keeping the smallest of leaves.
pic of new branch:

20120.png

hope this helps

chris

[Paulneill]

Thanks for the replys

Chris I'm talking about end of spring growth maintenance on a fully developed tree
What you are referring to is branch development .
Shibui has answered my question and I totally get what they are saying in the books now .

The new spring growth that has hardened off is pruned back to the first leaf / pair of leaves ( of that branch )
They always leave that bit out ( of that branch)

So basically at this stage of development the trees branches should already have at least secondary branches and already some ramification and it's just the terminal growth tips which are pruned back to one leaf( from the last junction) .so some branches may only be pruned back just inside the outline and others maybe in a bit farther depending on there junctions.

I think i just confused myself again
What if the branch junction is deep inside the tree?

[chrisatrocky]

I think you read something into what I had written, that is not there. I gave you the same info as Shibui, in plain English. Plus explained why you do it and gave you a diagram which shows you how to do it. What did Shibui write that I didn't.
As I said, this technique is used to create more branching, shorter internodes and smaller leaves. You would only use it on a fully developed tree. It has nothing to do with branch development, except in the final ramification of a pad.
If the branch juction as you call it, comes from deep inside the tree, then you need to deside wheather or not the branch is required. If not, remove it. If it adds to the tree then deside where it needs to be cut back to, to get the best from it.

chris

[shibui]

Paul,
Its often hard to tell where the shoot is coming from when the tree is in full leaf so often just keep clipping the new shoots back during summer but in winter when you can see the structure cut back all shoots to 1 or 2 nodes, even if this is deep inside a branch. Cutting back hard gives movement to the shoots and ramification from the base. Nothing looks worse than a long straight twig/branch on a tree with good movement elsewhere. It will always depend on the individual situation - there are no real hard and fast rules - but I'd tend to cut all shoots back hard to get better movement and ramification.
For trees that produce very strong spring growth with long internodes I now cut the shoot right back to no leaves/ buds (just leave a short stub of the shoot at the base). It will shoot again from the base and the next growth usually has shorter internodes so better opportunity to produce ramification closer to the base.

Chris I disagree:

You would only use it on a fully developed tree. It has nothing to do with branch development, except in the final ramification of a pad.

Branches developed from a single long shoot are either straight and lack taper or, if wired, look artificial. I now grow all branches by allowing the initial shoot to grow then cut back to get side shoots and movement and continue to grow and cut for the entire development period. Much more natural result in the long run
Many ways to grow a bonsai, just my preference.

[Bretts]

Paul,
Chris has given an excellent decsription of the technique that compliments Shibui's explination of a technique that is very easy but harder to explain without diagrams.

I would disagree that this is limited to branch development, in fact I would suggest that it is a very versitile technique that can be used in many ways.
The hardest part of this technique is actually when to do it and that will come down to a multitude of variables including species climate and vigor of the tree.

[chrisatrocky]

The original question was about cutting back to the 1st or 2nd leaf or leaves. This technique is used to biuld ramification.
Now, let me explain, before you try to build ramification, you need to build a frame work of branches. You need to let the initial branch grow to the thickness you want and then cut it back to the length you require (usually 1/3 the eventual length of the branch), let secondary branching grow, until they are thick enough, cut them back and so on until you are happy with the branch frame work. Only then can you utilize this technique, to build ramification to form the padding.
To cut back to the 1st or 2nd leaf on a developing branch (branch other than twigging for ramification)would only be possible on a small shohin size tree. As on anything larger, by the time the branch is thick enough to be of use, the leaves have already dropped, usually a season or 2 before. Always, the main branch structure is cut back to the appropiate length and has nothing to do with the 1st or 2nd leaf (although in some species you need to cut back to where a leaf joins or was joined to the branch)
Cutting back to the 1st or 2nd leaf is to create ramification, shorter internodes and smaller leaves. There is no reason, to use this technique, for any other purpose. To do so would be detrimental to the development of your tree. This is how I develop my trees.

chris

[Bretts]

There is no reason, to use this technique, for any other purpose.

I can think of at least one other reason

By Peter Tea
Since there are so many variables in Bonsai including the artist themselves, there would never be just one way to do anything.