Stupid Question( Shohin Stock)

[Luke308]

Yes it is a stupid question, but if you don't ask, you don't learn.


I was wondering what is the best method of starting Shohin to get convincing looking aged trees in pots that fit in the palm of your hand? By that I mean seed, cutting, Yamadori (which I imagine would be hard to find suitable stock) or nursery stock?

Also, how do you then initially develop it? put straight in a tiny pot, or over-pot to get trunk girth first? I'm sorry for asking such basic questions, but I feel there is a mystique around shohin minis that I would love to learn. I have a bunch of seedlings at the moment, so I would like to know what to do with them to be on the path to something that resembles a convincing aged tree in my palm.

Thanks
Luke

edited for spelling errors

[Ash]

Hi Luke,

I think the best beginning for a shohin is a mature branch pruned from a mature bonsai and taken as a cutting. Old apex of a bonsai being shortened is excellent for uprights, or a side branch or sacrifice branch for sideways styles. You will find some worthy posts by our Shohin leader Pup to that effect.

cheers
Ash

[Andrew F]

Pups Bottle brush shohin are second to none.

[Watto]

Luke,
As shohin don't take up a hugh amount of space you can afford to have a few from a few different methods. As suggested, try some cuttings. Also try an established bonsai and cut it down. Grow some seedlings in the ground and shape/cut them to the desired shape and size. Get a couple from a nursery and wire, shape and cut them to your prefered size and shape. There are opportunities to dig suitable Yamadori or urban yamadori, but they will need cutting to a suitable branch. Grow a couple in the ground, a couple in large pots and a couple in small or bonsai pots to see what is your preferred way.
The biggest thing though is have fun and learn as you go.

[kcpoole]

my 2 bobs worth
Depends on what you have available as they are all valid methods to get a nice tree, just rhe time to get the finished article will change

Seedling will take for ever to make any sized tree. Put in the ground and grow on will take several years for a small tree, and many for a big one. Mature Bark will take the same time regardless. a Black pine will be 10 years to get mature bark regardless of size of the finished tree. so must e taken into account.

If you happen to find nursery stock with nice movement and low branching in the right places, then you will be lucky, but if you have to grow branches from a bare trunk, it will still take a few years to achieve.

if you take a large tree and cut down, then you will have large scars to recover and branching / apex to grow from scratch so will take a few good year to get a finished tree anyway. you could carve extensively to achieve the taper but you still need to grow branching and nebari,.and develop ramification to give that aged look.

No simple answer really, but to select stock that has potential and a lot of the features already in place.

Trawl thru the Shohin comp trees and look at each critically and see what has immediate potential as a finished tree, Then think of those that do not have anything readily going for them, how long would it take to get the features you would like to see?

Ken

[alpineart]

Hi Luke 308 , mate this is not a stupid question , actually its far from it , nor is any question asking for knowledgable input from other .I'm surprised the topic hasn't been edited to remove the STUPID word .My little bloke is 8 and he asks 1000 questions a day i repeat myself and some times i get a little short with him, but none of his questions seeking knowledge are stupid as he wants to learn . As for creating aged trees with good /movement features use aged material . Air layer older branches with some character , purchase older stock ,damaged broken but still healthy .Collect older material from gardens or yamadori . If i intend to layer material in the yard or pot i will usually pre trim prior to layering this gives me at least a jump start in the right direction .At the end of the day it will still take time to develop .

Cheers Alpineart

[Handy Mick]

Hi Luke,
You should approach shohin the same as a larger sized bonsai, the techniques are exactly the same, no difference, just on a smaller scale.
Growing shohin can save you a few years because you don't need to grow on as long this is all. In some cases you may just need to refine.
Luke, I don't grow anything from seed, this may cause the dogs to bark but I think its boring . I take cuttings / air layers and collect Yamadori, mainly the urban type, I also check out nurseries, suburban and bonsai.
Remember from mini to the very large size bonsai the techniques are the same from collecting through to fine development

Regards
Mick

[Hornet]

The only stupid question is the one never asked.

You can air layer to get some amazing shohin in a short period of time or just nursery stock cut down to size

[Jamie]

gday mate

matey you have been given some good advice here. the only other thing I can advice for decent shohin in a quicker amount of time from growing from seed (which I am doing as I have the years to wait ) is to get fast growing trees, clero, fig, elm etc.

I actually have a fair few interesting clero cuttings that are striking that will develop really well in a short time if your interested. pm me

[Pup]

Luke, just about any tree you already have will make a Shohin. I do not subscribe to the same as Larger tree theory!. When you take cuttings look for interesting shapes and if possible get a large heel from the parent stock.

Cutting down from larger nursery stock, is another way to go. Do not start with skinny, as this is the only time they are treated in my book as larger, it will take for ever, look though the Shohin threads there are some tutorials.
From what I started some of mine from.

Cheers Pup

[thoglette]

I was wondering what is the best method of starting Shohin to get convincing looking aged trees in pots that fit in the palm of your hand? By that I mean seed, cutting, Yamadori (which I imagine would be hard to find suitable stock) or nursery stock?

I don't know "the best" - all I know is what works for me.

First, pick a really, really tough tree. One that is almost a weed in the area you live. Stuff that thrives on neglect.

Second, cutting down has worked best for me. The method that's had the best success rate is to top prune, wire and root prune a larger tree (eg. nursery stock) down to size and then re-pot in a largeish "training" pot at least twice as deep and wide as you want it to be in. Leave it there for a year to get some roots established. I tend to tip prune fairly mercilessly (did I mention the "weed" word?) to stop the tree getting too lanky.

The following year you can look at planting in a pot of roughly the right scale.

I regularly loose a few plants each year by rushing this.

And have failed to yet have anything under 15cm last more than a year, so take with lots of salt.