Zeolite, has anyone used it straight?

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Re: Zeolite, has anyone used it straight?

Post by bonscythe »

As far as I know perlite is pretty similar to diatomite in structure and shouldn't break down any faster. If you physically grind the stuff yes, but it would take a long time in a soil mix. It's not very dense and will float but that doesn't pose many problems here, unless you use it as a top-dressing.
My fert. scheme is borrowed from others on this forum and sounds like yours - Manutec Acid-Loving Plants (for my natives) and Aquasol (for the exotics and figs), Seasol, Native Osmocote Slow Release and now a sprinkling of dynamic lifter on top. Seems to be going great so far.. 8-)
Just to be a pain in the arse, I will add that seasol does actually have some ferts. in it although the amount present is negligable, check out their analysis here - http://www.seasol.com.au/images/stories ... 7_2007.pdf. I think Bretts showed me that link and it's nice to know exactly what's in the stinky brown stuff! :)
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Re: Zeolite, has anyone used it straight?

Post by Jamie »

ahwell, even if its got something in it i dont see it as a prob :D i might have to get some perlite and use it in a mix with zeolite and just to add to it maybe some coir peat? not gonna hurt hey :D
i will still see how these two go with straight zeolite :D


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Re: Zeolite, has anyone used it straight?

Post by bonscythe »

Oh yeah, I didn't mean it as a prob. with seasol, a bonus. I'm rapt with the stuff, I liken it to giving my plants a good stout/doppelbock :D
Just with the perlite, try and get the coarser hort. grade as the finer grade has pretty uniform particle size and I read someone (Pup?) say that uniform size is bad for bonsai. Either way, shouldn't be a drama...especially where your wallet is concerned :!:
Keep us up to date with those two eh?
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Re: Zeolite, has anyone used it straight?

Post by Jamie »

yea mate no prob bout keeping ya up to date with the trees in pure zeolite.

the fig
Fig in zeo.jpg
the olive
Olive chop.jpg
both hardy species so if there is gonna be an effect on these then there will be probs for sure. one would think.
i might even try it with something a little less hardy. any ideas for a test subject ? :D


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Re: Zeolite, has anyone used it straight?

Post by kcpoole »

Hartos wrote:Ken

Steve kindly (too kindly really) organised me some Maidenwell just before Christmas.

You live more or less down the road from me, where do you get your Zeolite from?

Chris
I get my Zeolite from Ray Nesci, Who is also going to stock Mt Sylvia Diatomite ( when the truck arrives :-)).
At the moment I getting Diatomite from Enfield Produce over near Strathfield

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Re: Zeolite, has anyone used it straight?

Post by Chris H »

bonscythe wrote: Hi Chris,
If your in Sydney, Ray Nesci's Bonsai Nursery had some last time I went, there was only one more bag on the shelf though. Hope he is getting more soon! :)
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Maybe you were there the day after Ken took it all. :lol:
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Re: Zeolite, has anyone used it straight?

Post by kcpoole »

jamie111 wrote: although i dont know how dynamic lifter will go with an in organic medium?

any thoughts on that?


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I have been using DL on all my trees every 4 - 6 weeks
Works for me for most trees so long as they are healthy. I have lost a few this year but think more fungus than fert burn going by the amounts being bandied about here lately :-)
I also alternate Charlie carp and seasol every 2 weeks or when I remember :-)

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Re: Zeolite, has anyone used it straight?

Post by kcpoole »

Hartos wrote:
bonscythe wrote: Hi Chris,
If your in Sydney, Ray Nesci's Bonsai Nursery had some last time I went, there was only one more bag on the shelf though. Hope he is getting more soon! :)
Cheers

Maybe you were there the day after Ken took it all. :lol:
LOL

Last time I spoke to Clinton just before chrissy he had a pallet oput the back I think

Call and check if in doubt :-)

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Re: Zeolite, has anyone used it straight?

Post by Bretts »

Last time I thought Ray was running out of zeolite he pointed around the corner to the pallet :D
I have had one JBP seedling in pure zeolite this year. Started out good but It recently gave up after looking a bit yellow for a while. It was a very fine mix so that could be just as much to blame? It will be interesting to see how yours go Jamie.
Looks good on paper?
http://www.cmzeolites.com.au/applicatio ... olites.pdf

Oh and that is a great article Andrew. I never realised I had all that great info in my Bonsai Workshop book. :)

A few things got me thinking about smaller particle size than upto 5mm that has been popular. I think I will be sticking with the 2-3mm that is recomended here.
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Re: Zeolite, has anyone used it straight?

Post by Jamie »

thanks for the link brett :D it does look good on paper, will se how they go with it, hopefully good, the one i got isnt that brand, i dont think although i didnt read all the small print on it, the one i got is activated zeolite, which i didnt understand exactly but i will check it out and do a bit of research on it :D

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Re: Zeolite, has anyone used it straight?

Post by Andrew Ward »

The link on CM Zeolite pretty much explains a lot of the reading and discussions I have had regarding Zeolite.

I am not sure what 'activated' Zeolite is ... my guess is that it is a marketing term.

Regarding 'nutrient locking', as I understand it, Zeolite has a honeycomb molecular structure. It is also has an ionic charge ... (not sure if it is positive or negative)!

There is an article on Zeolite on the SA Bonsai Society Website http://www.bonsaisa.org.au (August 2006/Issue 4) that is based on information provided by Mt Gipps Zeolites, based on a 1988 survey from the Department of Agronomy and Soil Science at the University of New England.

Reference is made in this article to 'fertiliser chemicals being loosely bonded to the zeolite and are slowly released to the plant. Nutrient loss due to leaching from excessive watering is reduced. Burning efects of high nitrogen frertilisers are bufered by the high initial uptake and slow release by the zeolite thus protecting early root development. Good water absorption and desorptiohn (10% - 15%) is beneficial during summer and aides the release of nutrients, encouraging a more even growth rate in plants.'

As I understand, excessive use of Zeolite can lead to nutrient becoming 'locked' within the honeycomb structure of Zeolite and therefore it becomes a matter of balancing Zeolite as one of the components used in our bonsai mediums.

I have heard positive and negative 'experiences' of using 100% Zeolite. However, without running a 'scientific test' against other mediums, (and where other variables of nature are also controlled) it is difficult to arrive at a hard and fast conclusion'. :? :? :?
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Re: Zeolite, has anyone used it straight?

Post by Jamie »

andrew,

from what you have said is that it is a very handy thing to have as a mix but maybe not a full 100% use as a medium, although i cant see a problem with it releasing nutrients slower once it has sucked some in as it would be getting a fertilize every week anyways so what the tree doesnt take in during the fertilizing it can take it in during the week while watering aswell? its a bit of a catch 22 sounds like to me, but not so bad either.
time will tell, especially if the two trees i am testing it on start booming, i am hoping so anyways?

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Re: Zeolite, has anyone used it straight?

Post by Graeme »

andrew ward wrote: Reference is made in this article to 'fertiliser chemicals being loosely bonded to the zeolite and are slowly released to the plant. Nutrient loss due to leaching from excessive watering is reduced. Burning efects of high nitrogen frertilisers are bufered by the high initial uptake and slow release by the zeolite thus protecting early root development. Good water absorption and desorptiohn (10% - 15%) is beneficial during summer and aides the release of nutrients, encouraging a more even growth rate in plants.'
This is what Zeolite is added to the mix to do. It will not "Lock Up" the nutrient, but it holds on to it and releases it more slowly to the plant to use, so preventing fast and total leaching. Most of the nutrient added to the potting medium is therefore available to the plant. Not all as there will still be some leaching, if not your medium is to heavy and not allowing water to pass through it. Zeolite is a handy aditive to most Bonsai mix, as we should all be using a fast draining Medium. One point that was mentioned to me years ago was that Zeolite remained wet for to long. As this worried me I did a test on it's water holding capability. I half filled a bucket with Zeolite and wieghed it, then filled the bucket with water and left it to sit for 24 hours. I then drained the water from the bucket and weighed the Zeolite again. I then placed the Zeolite into a plant pot, leaving it again for 12 hours, before again weighing the pot. Result = the wet Zeolite was nearly twice the weight of the dry Zeolite so it took up water nicely. Weight of the Zeolite 12 hours later was nearly the same as the initial dry weight, meaning it had released the water again for the plants use. Overall result, Zeolite will not result in a wet potting medium.
andrew ward wrote:As I understand, excessive use of Zeolite can lead to nutrient becoming 'locked' within the honeycomb structure of Zeolite and therefore it becomes a matter of balancing Zeolite as one of the components used in our bonsai mediums.
As explained above Andrew, Zeolite in any quantity will not lock up nutrient. The process by which Zeolite works is call Cation Exchange. This is the process by which the nutrients are held in the potting medium and released again for the plants use. I believe Zeolite has one of the highest Cation Exchange ratios. Well Rotted Cow manure is another that is well up on the list by the way, but has disadvantages against Zeolite.
andrew ward wrote:I have heard positive and negative 'experiences' of using 100% Zeolite. However, without running a 'scientific test' against other mediums, (and where other variables of nature are also controlled) it is difficult to arrive at a hard and fast conclusion'. :? :? :?
100% grit of any kind (& Zeolite is only a mined "grit" afterall) should not be used in ANY potting medium!!! (Possible exception being pond or aquarium potting mediums). All potting mediums need and must have some form of Buffer. This buffer can be in the form of soil, compost, peat or manure (OK maybe thats just compost, but if I didn't include it someone would have asked ;) ) The reason a buffer is so important is simply to protect the root system. I have been sitting here for quite a while trying to remember, but must be getting old :oops: . There is a temperature at which plant roots cease growing and go into a form of hibernation. That temp isn't that high and is regularly reached inside a pot, not so often in the ground, but we speak Bonsai here. Now, this hibernation wont effect a tree/plant in the normal cycle, but if the temp is reached often enough or for long enough the tree will suffer long term damage and will eventually die. So we take a Bonsai pot, any pot, large or small, fill it with grit and plant our tree into the pot and then take the tree and place it out on the bench where it receives the required sunshine and proceed to cook the root system through. Don't know if any of you have felt a Bonsai pot around lunch time, but they sure can get hot. The soil inside the pot will be even hotter if you were to stick a finger into it. Before you ask Jamie, the pelletised Chook poo used in the fast grow is the buffer ;) . Zeolite on its own will not harm a plant, if it was kept cool, but then the plant would suffer as it needs the warmth to grow, just add a buffer to the grit component of your potting medium.
Andrew if you have a chat to Pauline (You should know which one she is) about temps in a pot, she will fill you in as she did a fair amount of scientific research on the subject a few years ago. Janet will be the one to speak to about Zeolite, but dont get the two subjects mixed with the wrong person :P ;) (Pauline has diffent views on the worth of Zeolite ;) ) While you are talking to them, could you tell them I said hello as well please, haven't spoken to them for a long while. :(
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Re: Zeolite, has anyone used it straight?

Post by Jamie »

you see this is what surprises me, although zeolite may be just a "grit" so is diatomite, and i have seen it used straight to great effect? i was hoping shannon would pipe in here but hasnt yet :? he has been using straight diatomite with great results, which has lead me to beleive that the zeolite would be very similar?
although its not diatomite, one would think zeolite is similar in structure (one being me ;) :roll: :) )


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Re: Zeolite, has anyone used it straight?

Post by Grant Bowie »

About 22 years ago I conducted an experiment that proved to me you could grow Japanese Black pines in 100% Decomposed Granite(I used 2 - 6 mm approx I think) as had been used for years in california since the 50s and 60s.

I bare rooted a nursery stock black pine, washed the soil out, trimmed the roots and placed it into 100% DG in a colander; In the heat of January. Every thing that was supposed to be wrong.

The tree thrived with normal techniques and good fertilizing from then on.

The draw back was that it buggered the tools when root trimming, plus it became prohibitavely expensive plus I had to sieve and wash it; just as water restrictions were coming in and the quarry would not wash it for me. Plus it was heavy.

I am however still interested in totally inert mixes so I watch all these threads with interest.

Grant
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