English Elm

[kcpoole]

Thanks for the comments folks,

Tgward, I appreciate where you are coming from and can't argue with the issues in the areas you have pointed out, however I styled this tree knowing full well that these existed and I am not bothered by them in the slightest. This, as far as I am concerned is a nice tree at the beginning of its journey and can in time become even nicer still. Your comments (while I do appreciate them) are however the exact reason why I wasn't going to put this tree up at all,
(

Hmm I am quite surprised by the reply. an interesting point.

I totally get the gist of the entire reply you make but the comments about reluctance to post a tree "with faults" is what piqued my interest.
I took TG posts by prefaced his comments with "if it were his" as a way to broach the subject of identifying what in his opinion on future work to be considered rather than having a go at your styling choices.
Members posting their ideas and thoughts is what drive comment and discussion and though we might not agree with those comments, the fact they are freely given is what counts.
I have posted many trees that are "substandard" and do so in the hope to generate discussion about them, and offer learning opportunities for everyone.

The discussion of Critique and whether to give or not to give is a contentious issue sometimes and if members specifically do not want critique on their posts, then please put a note to that in the original post then the moderators will enforce that request.

You also mentioned that you know of others that do not post trees for fear of comment. Can you elaborate on that?
Maybe send a PM and let us know who has been concerned ?

Thanks
Ken

[tgward]

nevertheless- "if it were mine"------my thoughts on improving the tree and avoiding future problems, stand.

[kez]

Hi folks,

First of all thank you all for contributing, It's always nice to see posts where people are engaged,

Perhaps I used the wrong wording, what I meant was not to direct the reply strictly to tgwards comments, but more comments in that vain, the old "trunk chop and start again" or "stick it back in the ground for 5 years and move on to something else" etc. I knew that was going to be the response and I hope that I showed with my examples that there a plenty of amazing trees that share these and other faults. I confess I wasn't interested in having to read those kinds of things about this tree as I know it is, and will be, good, even if it's only in my opinion. As I have grown in experience and my skin has hardened I have learnt more and more that in the end that is the one that counts.

I am sure you all will agree that I have posted my fair share of trees (sometimes I worry that people will think that is all I do on here ) and always indicate that any and all comments are welcome, I have been posting trees right from the very start of my re-introduction to bonsai and have created some truly disastrous trees that at the time I was very proud of. I don't think anybody could accuse me of being averse to suggestion or criticism.

I have also, on many occasion, looked at my trees after such comments with much less joy and enthusiasm, I don't think I have achieved yet a tree that has garnered universal acclaim (and nor is that what I am after), and while this has helped me to grow, be critical of my own work and ultimately improve, I wonder how many people have chosen to fall into silence. It only takes a look at the number of visitors a day versus the number of posts to see that far more people visit the site than those that contribute. I do not for one second suggest that the above is the reason for this.... but it isn't unreasonable to suggest that for some it may be the case

I also see a lot of people here hang on to the tag of novice for a long long time, and I wonder what makes people feel that they are so far away from proficiency. I have in a very short time been humbled by many comments about the work that I have achieved, and in some cases have felt a little undeserving, but much like my comments initially, everyone must be entitled to their opinion and who am I to argue, I humbly accept and thank. I can't however accept that others can have been practicing for longer than me and still not hold their own skills in higher esteem, why?

Better artists than me have in this thread highlighted why we don't need to hack trees like this back to bare bones, I think Hugh summed it up perfectly when he mentioned the loss of soul and character in the pursuit of technical adherence. What I questioned in my reply was much greater than the example of my one tree, and like I said I in no way took offense to tgward's comments. I agree 100% with every fault he pointed out, I just won't go his way with it, and nor would he go mine

With regards to the people I have spoken with, it is not for me to go further into this as it is not my issue, but rest assured it has not been communicated on the forum, and the choice is the individuals to make. On the whole this forum is highly respectful and welcoming and it is rare that moderators need to step in, and I believe that people contribute as much or as little as they like.

I hope I haven't put anybody out, and I hope everybody enjoys being here as much as me

Kerrin

[tgward]

cool

[kez]

Rodm,

It was purchased from Bonsai South

[rodm]

Kez,
We have them growing wild up here and there are few places where we can go and pluck'em out. Going to get some this season. Love to see what your tree produce foliage wise in the spring. Like I said you'll be surprised.This is where the tree could influence your direction. Best of luck
Cheers RodM

[Kevin]

Constructive Criticism is what it's all about - isn't it?

Also this particular thread has the bonus of many members thoughts on Bonsai styling, which i have found very educational.

Kevin

[kcpoole]

OK Kids
I have removed all the off topic posts.
the thread will stay as it has lots of potential as a learning tool for everyone.

Yep our opinions differ on the merits of any stock, and hey that is good.
Advice is give and so long as that is done so in a friendly manner then we all can learn from ideas. There is no reason we have to do any of the suggestions provided and I find they can reinforce our own ideas and plans for the tree.

Ken

[kez]

Well spring didnt quite go as planned last year,

All the growth I selected and wired out died back (literally all of it) but thankfully it shot from the base of all the branches so I was left with at least something to build with

Anyway yesterday I busted my guts getting this into a pot,

I have to say, I am frustrated with the state of some of the ground grown pre bonsai stock I have worked with over time, I totally understand what happens when growing a tree in the ground, and why it is done but I am sick of having to saw off what can only be described as trunk in the middle of the root ball so that trees like this can make it into a bonsai pot. It is incredibly difficult to hold onto the tree while its on its side and actually get enough purchase with a hand saw to get through 5cm thick wood without doing any damage and I just don't think its good enough,

Just as much needs to be done under the soil as above for trees to be bonsai and its hard enough reducing the root ball from big grow tubs without having to do major surgery

Anyway thats my rant over, here's the tree

IMG_5934 (1024x683).jpg

Lets see what this spring brings

Kerrin

[treeman]

Well spring didnt quite go as planned last year,

All the growth I selected and wired out died back (literally all of it) but thankfully it shot from the base of all the branches so I was left with at least something to build with

Anyway yesterday I busted my guts getting this into a pot,

I have to say, I am frustrated with the state of some of the ground grown pre bonsai stock I have worked with over time, I totally understand what happens when growing a tree in the ground, and why it is done but I am sick of having to saw off what can only be described as trunk in the middle of the root ball so that trees like this can make it into a bonsai pot. It is incredibly difficult to hold onto the tree while its on its side and actually get enough purchase with a hand saw to get through 5cm thick wood without doing any damage and I just don't think its good enough,

Just as much needs to be done under the soil as above for trees to be bonsai and its hard enough reducing the root ball from big grow tubs without having to do major surgery

Anyway thats my rant over, here's the tree

IMG_5934 (1024x683).jpg

Lets see what this spring brings

Kerrin

It's not a rant. It's something which needs to be repeated often. The vast majority of material offered in the trade is sub-standard to say the least.

[Pearcy001]

Shame about the tree below soil level Kez, although that pot is working wonders.

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[Sno]

Kez wrote
"Just as much needs to be done under the soil as above for trees to be bonsai and its hard enough reducing the root ball from big grow tubs without having to do major surgery"
I agree some of the stock I've bought from 'Bonsai Nurseries ' has just been root bound roughly pruned trees . I get better stock from my local nursery . The trunk may be smaller but I don't waste years fixing the roots . If im paying a premium for a tree I expect the roots to be at least started on the journey towards a bonsai i.e. the tap root pruned . A plug for shibui and padre pio both who have done root work on the trees I've bought off them .
Nice start Kez that pot compliments the tree well .

[Nate.bonsai]

Great post Kez and good generated discussion.

Nice tree, good relaxed and natural flow and a nice, open, easy feeling to it.

I have seem innumerable Kokufu commemorative album trees with similar lack of taper and they were all good enough for the pinnacle of exhibitions. Not at all saying that every un-tapered stick is worthy of a bonsai pot - as in my view many don't deserve to be in one (hence none of mine have graduated yet), but it is the overall feel and mood that is important.

Totally agree with your push-back on the 'chop it back substantially and re-grow'. I think that it is far easier to pass this 'constructive' criticism on someone else's trees and wonder how many of the people that routinely give this advice actually happily cut off years of growth and branch development and commit themselves to another 5-10 years' hard graft... If you do (and I have set myself on the slow 20 year road with a few trees), kudos and no criticism to you (quite the opposite).

I also totally agree with the rant on root development in bonsai stock. It is the HARDEST thing to fix 10 years down the track. It MUST be dealt with and put on the right track early on. I have equally been miffed after spending $ubstantial $um$ of money on a tree only to find that there were three trees (big thick nasty roots) branching off it under the surface.


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[bodhidharma]

All the growth I selected and wired out died back (literally all of it) but thankfully it shot from the base of all the branches so I was left with at least something to build with

In my experience it is unfortunately a trait of E.E's that when you wire out secondary's, and some main branching, they suffer from dieback. Rootwork on E.E's should happen every year and for the first ten or so years should be overpotted. I have underpotted a tree that was well developed and it suffered dieback. I would suggest that after you have developed the main branching and also some secondary's that you start a regime of clip and grow instead of wiring. You can have a smaller pot for a year (maybe for a show) but then put it back into a slightly larger container. Also when you root prune you can be vigorous as they grow back very quickly. Just what i have observed with Ulmus procera's. I think your tree has great potential and will bounce back.

[kez]

This tree is moving along nicely,

Dropped it's leaves early after a VERY hot summer here and kinda stayed dormant but is full of buds so should power on in spring, looking back at the last pic it's added some good ramification in the 2 years

IMG_6755 (1024x683).jpg

I'm still very out of my depth with deciduous trees but I really enjoy having this one on the bench

Kerrin