Palm fibre

[Handy Mick]

Hi Philippe and all,
Philippe, i do hope in the future that i will be welcomed into your academy to do some cources when i am able, due to distance and monetry problems at the moment i am not.
I do see now, why Penjing is not so publicised as Bonsai, thank you for shedding some light of past events etc.
But Philippe, what Matt and myself, aswell as many others, i'm sure, we all feel that we need something to get us started on this path, (once we have the taste, we need more) I personally feel, that you, being the only school of this type outside China to show your skills and share what you have learnt,and to make your mark, I'm sure that you believe that what you sow, you receive maybe even tenfold there are nurserymen and masters of bonsai on this forum that give free advice even though this is their business. Respect is earnt, this is not to say that i don't respect you, but I don't know who you are! or how good you are.
If you don't shed some light on this subject, one of your students will. If you show your authority on this subject now and atleast show the basics, people will turn to you for inspiration and guidance also atend your courses, this is how we roll. I am sure that you are great at what you do being the curator of the chinese gardens in Darling Harbour and all, but where have you been?
Philippe,I beg of you to show some business management, give us a taste of what you know and we will flock to you. We hold our own masters in very high regard, we know them by name and site and they are in demand, I am not asking you to do Utube videos at all, we are asking only for a little advice.
Serious, if you dont show us the right way, one of your student will show us the wrong way,and they will, i'm sure they will be taking your place that you deserve.
Mick

[Andrew Legg]

Or put simply, "Hey Phillipe, instead of telling us how amazing, fancy, mystical, secretive and unobtainable it all is, why not give us a a bit of basic info to get those that are interested started?".

With all due respect, your last post got my back up a bit, but I did not respond. Seeing Mick's response has got me going though. I could pen a similar article about the complexities of bonsai, but what would it achieve? These forums are for sharing knowledge. Most of us play and say it straight here, so if you don't have the time or inclination, or you do not believe this to be an appropriate medium to shed a bit of light and share your passion with others, then just let us know.

A few pointers:

* Aus is a big place, and not everyone can get to your classes.
* This forum caters for plenty of people outside of Aus as well.
* A forum like this will/can never replace hands on classes and lecturing.

Just some food for thought.

Cheers,

Andrew

[Taffy]

I have to agree with Handy Mick's 'diplomatic' reply and to Andrew's more 'straight shooting' reply Philippe.

We have some very experienced members in many facets of Bonsai and they are all prepared to share their experience and knowledge - and as has been said, some own Bonsai nurseries but are still prepared to share with others.

If you're not here to share information, techniques and knowledge about the art of Bonsai or Penjing, then why are you here? Is it just to push your 'Academy'? Even at the end of your 'enlightening' reply - which really didn't explain anything, you still directed people to your business and courses. I don't think that is within the spirit of Ausbonsai. If you intend to just continue using Ausbonsai as an advertizing medium for your 'Academy' instead of sharing like the rest of us do, may I suggest you make a commercial rate donation to the owner of the forum - for every advert you post?

...and that's my worth

[Philippe Tot]

Calm guys, Calm....

I posted my lengthy response to only shed light on questions I saw on ' Why is it is hard to find technical information on this subject?'

Anyone who does in fact know me, will verify, I am always more than happy to speak and teach anyone topics on Penjing or Chinese teachings. Admittedly , tonight I was going to assist in your queries in higher detail .

But, politeness & I see some retrain seems to have by passed this topic completely, naturally under these circumstances I have no further urging to do so.

Apologies Matt I did not see your earlier posting until today. So I would have written something to your response.

Stick to your path with Penjing and never cease to stop finding new ways of handling each obstacle. Always strive to seek what nature intended , not what man intended.
Find it 'only' by finding yourself and it will open up to you as clear as a crystal spring.

My friend I am only a phone call away, or if you are ever in Sydney from Newcastle pop in, say hi, sure we have in common to chat about.

'Taffy' (Since you choose not to allow me to address you peronaly)

- Clubs and Schools
Promote and discuss your bonsai club or school here - "AusBonsai"

- Many of the wisest words are best in the words unsaid-

My sincere Apologies to others who have been dispointed by this outcome by reading this thread.

[MattA]

Edit:

Apologies Matt I did not see your earlier posting until today. .

Stick to your path with Penjing and never cease to stop finding new ways of handling each obstacle. Always strive to seek what nature intended , not what man intended.
Find it 'only' by finding yourself and it will open up to you as clear as a crystal spring.

My friend I am only a phone call away, or if you are ever in Sydney from Newcastle pop in, say hi, sure we have in common to chat about.

- Many of the wisest words are best in the words unsaid-

Hi Phillipe,

No apologies needed, I thank you for the insightful words, I have been taught most by nature, the more i listen to her, the less obstacles I see.

I would be very happy to spend a day talking at length with you on many things however my trees keep me from leaving Newcastle often or for long periods. I have approx 150 pots with plants from under 3cm to over 2mtrs, with another 100 or so in the ground plus many more yamadori being prepared, there is always much to be done.

Since finding Ausbonsai, man's input has enabled me to provide even better care for my trees than I alone had been able to do. If you look at 2 of my own recent topics viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5717 sharing the little I have learnt from a tree in 4yrs. viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7298 the second is learning that same basic information from someone with actual hands on experience. I still have to learn how to apply it hands on but atleast I have a basic understanding of the care my new child needs and hopefully give me a head start with this unusual, rare & unique tree.

I have Penjing 'picture' books to thank for my love of Australian natives ('look to what is around you') and following my own path as often as possible, we all slip from time to time.

Repectfully,
Matt

Ps I did not know that you were responsible for the collection at Darling harbour, during the 90's I regularly spent my lunchtime in the gardens viewing the penjing & a number of 'special' trees around the gardens. I would have enjoyed those lunchtimes even more for discourse with another.

[bonsaibruce]

Palm Fibre training.jpg

On the BCI China tour in October we saw palm fibre in use. The finished branch is very flat.

Happy bonsai,
Bruce

[Damian Bee]

Great stuff Bruce, out of this world that is for sure.

[Mitchell]

Thanks for the shots Bruce, that is amazing.

Those pads are stunning. Truly something I need to know more about.

[Mitchell]

Philippe Tot, thank you for your replies.

Is there anyway to convince you, to perhaps show us a basic tie formation on a single branch. I understand becoming proficient in this technique takes many years, but it would interest me greatly if you could show us, starting tie off, how we determine compression of bends, how we lock the curve in and how we then proceed to the next curve of the branch.

I believe I have been using a similar techniques for close to I5 years. Though what I do was only devised out of simplicity. I found it much easier to compress bends, then use twine to hold the curve, jumping along the branch to the tip.

I use this technique often, from large stock, like the previous picture of a large radiata, to fine branch work.

Jute is my preferred choice of mediums to use. As it is readily available and I never knew about Palm fiber or this technique, prior to this thread.


Thank you for your time Philippe, any contributions/pictures you add would benefit us greatly.

[Bretts]

I think Philippe deserves some support here.
He is not required by the spirit of Ausbonsai to pass on his knowledge to the forum. There are many that use the forum in varying ways. Some just browse and not reply. Some reply often but never show their trees. Some engage with Ausbonsai in all manners. Others come on to only post about upcoming shows or events.
Of course I wish some would contribute in more ways but I understand it is their decision and respect that.
I am still appreciative of the people that come here just to post about upcoming events or in Philippe's about the availability of the LINGNAN PENJING ACADEMY OF AUSTRALIA. It is great that people realise this is a great resource for advertising Bonsai events and courses and we all benefit from that.

I surprised myself by becoming very interested in the penjing styling so I would love to hear more from Phillipe about it. But I respect any decision Phillipe makes about that because it is his decision just as it is to any other Member that visits wether they want to post their trees or not.
We should be congratualting Phillipe for accomplishing so much at a young age and the upcoming release of what sounds like another great Aussie Publication this time on Penjing.

I have enjoyed reading your responses to this immensely Phillipe. One thing I think I have worked out about Penjing is that it is about the poetry of Nature and less about being a scale model of a natural tree.
I notice a poetry in your responses and tend to think there is much more teaching in your responses than others may realise.

[Mitchell]

Thought I would roughly tie a small branch to show you how I use jute string.
Being a natural fiber, by the time the branch sets, the string can normally just be pulled away as it has decomposed over the several months.

Because there is no wire encasing the branch, I have taught myself to feel the heartwood of the branch and fracture it internally at several points along the curve. This must be done without breaking the cambium. The several tiny internal heartwood fractures, prevent one big fracture and a snap of the heartwood. It's all about manipulating the heartwood and fracturing it to allow the sharp curves. After a while it becomes second nature and can be done by touch only.
Of coarse if you start early enough on green new shoots, you can avoid the heartwood issue I describe above completely.

The branch shown is only tied in one plain. Once this has been done you can then tie up/down bends also. I can post pics of that if anyone is interested.



Like I said, this is just something I taught myself doesn't necessarily have anything to do with said technique.

[Philippe Tot]

Hi Mat/ Mitchell others

Hi Matt , Mitchell and others,


Matt xie xie for your kind words, yes I am the guy who did all the penjing for the Chinese Gardens also the Garden itself from 1992 – 2010. It was an honour to do so, I since resigned to teach full time, as well as flying to China back and forth... And working with the Shoalin Temple Trust , time is limtied . Maybe over the years you may have meet me once or twice....

Ok, since some of you are so far away I will try to upload some examples of Palm fibre work, but I am new to this computer stuff so Im not sure if it the photos will come out right but I will will see how it goes. Apologies a they are not close ups, but i think you should be able to zoom back and forth on the pictures.

Also FYI, I have other shots of Fibre example on the academy official web site or if you are on facebook also more there. I will include both links'

http://www.penjing.com.au

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Philippe- ... 0960528929

With the fibre strings traditional Lingnan fibres are Banana, Hemp. Cain Palm, Livistonia palm, Cain Sugar, Bamboo, Taro, Iris or even Horse hair fibre. Now with other schools in China, other verifications are also used.
Lingnan, although known to implement the 'whatever works approach' , traditionally stay away from, twine, cotton, plastics, or Jute, anything that has dye in it or preservatives.

Jute being probably the best that is readily available here should you wish to use the alternative.

Although It not as effective as Palm fibre as it has little resilience to the elements and does not break down in the desired manner.
Now you may think what is the deference what sting you use?

This lies in the Tao approach to Penjing that nothing used does not serve or feed another section in the cycle. Symbiotic in every which turn. So Wires has no place in this cycle.

Most twines, or even Jute have been made with chemical treatments, enhancements, or dyes and this goes also with cottons etc.

Also, banana or Taro has more density, yet as it break down 'flakes' out., these are used not only for branch training but also for breaks wound dressings etc..

Currently in China lots of Penjing implement wires and have since departed from traditional practices. The modern Chinese market is also trying to compete with the Japanese Bonsai market demand. Also due to the monotonous nature of fibre work, in manufacturing for limited market low profit market and the actual work of applications itself in Penzai and Penjing in General....Wire won the battle.
But her in Sydney the traditional methods are being shown, although not disclosing the benefits of wire entirely.

Mitchell, you are on the right path, suitable alternatives from wires are always good ones. But be sure to have your anchor points well allocated- The key in fibre works is 'leverage' ,

Yet with Anchor points you must allow the branches to be flexible. You want the tree to move with the wind and breeze. So do not space out your points evenly. Taper your Tie points.

Hope this shed some light on this subject for some of you.

Take care and good luck with your Penjing ventures, may they be long and prosperous ones.

Philippe Tot

Elm.jpg

[Philippe Tot]

have enjoyed reading your responses to this immensely Phillipe. One thing I think I have worked out about Penjing is that it is about the poetry of Nature and less about being a scale model of a natural tree.
I notice a poetry in your responses and tend to think there is much more teaching in your responses than others may realise

.

Brett,

xie xie


' Each must find there own path,
Journey inwards forsake the ever outwards darkness,
Inside be alight unto yourself.
Each must do so,
Each mus do so,
Internal for what can take 5 lifetimes,
With no other purpose
Only to come back ,
Only to come back
To what 'is' at the beginning'

Philippe Tot

[MattA]

Phillipe,

I watched you tend the Penjing on a few occasions, only a few feet away yet I could not raise a voice. One day, I watched my favorite tree being worked, a frangipani sweeping out over the water, maybe it was you. That tree and a little pine atop the rock (in the little grotto type garden below the tea house) have remained in my memory as if burned there.

The pine reminds of a photo in the Paul Lesniewicz book, an older man so proud of his new purchase holding it up to show off for the camera before he straps it to his bike & rides home. As a 12yr old comparing that tree to some of the ones I saw in Bonsai books that were said to be good examples, none of the people looked anywhere near as happy as that man! It is that 'picture' that I always seek to feel within my own trees, if I cannot find it I would prefer to find someone who does. That way i can focus on those that bring me the most joy, even tho on the surface they may not appear to be the best trees in styling.

Thank you for the information regarding the fibres and what they are made from etc. I have a number of those plants growing here or easily obtained, I will have to have a little play & see what i can work out. I am curious about this statement

Lingnan, although known to implement the 'whatever works approach'

You mention using the fibres also for breaks wounds etc, It got me thinking, could I use comfrey leaf for damage? It has a fibrous stem & the juices contain a cell proliferant (makes things grow/repair faster), something like a herbal wound paste, its old name is knitbone.

Matt

[MattA]

' Each must find there own path,
Journey inwards forsake the ever outwards darkness,
Inside be alight unto yourself.
Each must do so,
Each mus do so,
Internal for what can take 5 lifetimes,
With no other purpose
Only to come back ,
Only to come back
To what 'is' at the beginning'

Philippe Tot