Ray's American Hornbeams

[Bretts]

On my first trip to Ray's I came accross some trees that had the most amazing autum colour. Ray said they were a specail tree and told me the story of how he brought back the seed from Japan but only one germinated. The tree I got that day may never be a show stopper but I enjoy it alot in it's current form. I may look at various techniques to get a better root base to get rid of the kangaroo legs. But I am happy with the overall shape.

bonsai hornbeam firey jim.jpg

bonsai hornbeam firey jim (11).jpg

I think this pot suits it alot but it is not the best horticulturaly I have considerd slip potting it latley but unless it cops a hammering I will leave till spring.

Here is a picture as I got it from ray you can see the amazing autum colour.

hornbeam bonsai firey jimFG (4).jpg

This a quote from Brent Waltson "The real treat is in the fall when the leaves turn red, yellow and orange, not diffusely but in stripes. We have seen leaves where one half of the leaf separated by the midvein was red and the other half yellow or orange. The striping will also occur between the side veins of the leaves" Describes what you see in this picture.

hornbeam bonsai firey jimFG (3).jpg

[MelaQuin]

I had a hornbeam but I live too close to the coast to get real colour... it went a nice yellow but that was about the most dramatic. I love the corrugated leaves and with fall colour it is a spectacular tree in colder climates than here. You are doing nice things with the styling.

[Bretts]

I bought a couple of other hornbeams of Ray that were Japanese and European. As I was having trouble with the leaf burn on another trip I told myself I was going to get a tree that was more heat tolerant. That was the plan anyway until I couldn't walk past this guy.
I had thought they were carpinus coreana from thye description of them from Brent but Ray is adamant that they are American Hornbeam Carpinus carolina.
I posted the tree on a forum and many were adamant that it was Hop Hornbeam from the rough bark. Hmm
I worked on this tree with guidance From Tom of Shady Side Bonsai through internet tutoring. It was the second tree we did this way
After alot of discussion I was convinced to chop the top down and regrow the top trunk. Tom was not happy with my final chioce of leader and he may prove to be right yet
This is as I got it

Carpinus (4).jpg

This is leaf fall after cutting back mid summer

Carpinus (3).jpg

a picture of the autumn colour

Carpinus.jpg

This is a recent picture after I cut of the leader. I am not happy with the result at the moment but I will leave for another season to see if it will smooth out. It has formed a swollen colar around the cut. I am not so sure why it is doing that yet they can be a bugger for healing. I will have to just watch it for a while? I have sent a sample of the tree to the sydney botanical gardens for identification. The result should be back next week. This is a free service for upto 6 samples per year. More on this later.

Carpinus (2).jpg

[Bretts]

I grew up on the coast Mela and we have been looking at moving back. A big consideration I have is I won't move were I won't get the cold needed for the autum colour. The dam trees rule my life
I am glad you like the tree. I think I am lucky to have my first trees. It is a reminder of my beginings. Tom tried to get me to chop this one down and grow it out again but it would not be the tree I worked on in my first two years then

[Bretts]

I almost forgot to include a pic of the one Ray owns.
I have never seen this one in full colour but it must be a blast.

bonsai Ray Nesci (8).jpg

[PeterW]

Nice material Brett! Spectacular colour, i can see why you are infatuated with the species. Wish i could have one up here! I would love to see Ray's in autumn colour.
Peter

[63pmp]

Brett,

A little research on the internet showed some confusion about general names for C. turczaninovii & C. koreana. Seems that most westerners call C. turczaninovii "Korean hornbeam", where as Brent Walston distinguishes the two. Ray sold me my hornbeams as C. Turczaninovii, which is commonly known as Rock Hornbeam in Japan, maybe he is calling these korean hornbeam by mistake.

I took some photos this morning, hope this helps in identifying yours.

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Paul

[Bretts]

Thats very interesting Paul. It only has me more intrigued though
What you have as American hornbeam from Ray definitely does not look like mine. But the one you state as C. Turczaninovii with leaves showing red new growth is very much what look like mine.

The small one I purchased first

hornbeam ID (2).jpg

The larger second one that still has the Tag American hornbeam

hornbeam ID (3).jpg

But after getting these pictures to post I realise that only my small one has red on the new growth. I had noticed that some were green tipped but I thought it was from a difference in growth speed or something not only on the one tree
The smaller first one

hornbeam ID (5).jpg

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The larger second one tagged as American Hornbeam

hornbeam ID (4).jpg

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As far as I can tell from the picture record is that the small one has the red shoots but the larger one doesn't. Yet the two look the same in almost every other manner. The one other possible difference I see is that the large one got slightly different autumn colour. Although pretty spectacular on the leaves that were left , the colour did not really seperate by the veins as I showed earlier in the thread. I thought this was from less than pristine leaves after leaf burn.
I would have thought Ray was propagating buy cutting. But I guess propagation by seed could explain the variation between my two. That does not explain why my American hornbeam looks like your C. Turczaninovii.
Now I must inform that I was too excited to remember the name of the first small one I got off Ray That is when I came up with C.coreana From Brents description, but when I was buying the larger one Ray and I believed the larger one that was tagged as American hornbeam when I purchased it was the same as the smaller one bought earlier.
So anyway I have one tree tagged as American hornbeam that does not look like your American Hornbeam from Ray
I bought another from Ray the day I bought the small one. I did not remember a name for this one either but from Brent's Hornbeam species list I had guessed C. Turczaninovii fromBrent description "New foliage is a deep bronze color" for Carpinus turczaninovii. The colour of the new growth on this was very pronounced You can see it still there on older leaves. Chatting with Ray I think I remember we guessed it was what he called Rock Hornbeam.

I don't have any better pics of this as I killed it in my shade house(hot house) year.

hornbeam ID.jpg

hornbeam bonsai lax (3).JPG

It is one of two Fatalities that has upset me in my 4 years. The other being my crab apple from Ray.

I had noticed the same discrepancy as you have Paul in the common naming as well as some of the scientific naming for Carpinus. When others started sating Ray's American Hornbeam was actually a Hop Hornbeam , Ostrya off some definition( I'm not going there yet ) I have been determined to get a positive ID For these. My research leads me to still believe That the bark and characteristics come closer to C coreana than any other species. The larger one still has it's Tag American Hornbeam in it's original foam container.
In my reading I was surprised to find that Carpinus is in the Betulaceae, or the Birch Family including the birches, alders, hazels, hornbeams and hop-hornbeams, numbering about 130 species. Also this from Wikipedia "closest relatives of the Betulaceae are believed to be the Casuarinaceae, or the She-Oaks" Wow it's an Aussie relative. I was also very surprised to learn it is not in the same family as the Beech.
It will be an interesting test for the Sydney botanical garden Plant Id specialists. I will do a post on how this is done after I get the results so I can give you the full story of thier free service.
I should get ID results before I go to Sydney next weekend. I have a Rare chance to stop in at Ray's so I will also take these picture with me.
I have been amazed by how many different and harder to get species Ray has at his nursery. I chased an ungrafted paperbark maple everywhere before Ray told me he had one. He even had the obscure Hornbeam maple (A maple with a single lobed leaf shaped like the Japanese hornbeam). Even though he had never got around to getting cuttings of the stock plant he offerd to do a batch in the following spring. I was very embarrassed when I had to tell him the little cutting he gave me for free had died. Especially when I tried to blame my 2 year old son I might be game to ask if he has any more this trip

I would be very interested to see the bark on your trees Paul. You can show me the whole tree if you like. . What sought of autumn colour are they getting?
I hope this post is easier to read than write
edited 7 times in total: Because either the english language is dislexic or I am

[63pmp]

Brett,

Some good information there, the whole world was once joined up together so it's not surprising their all related.

About your coloured shoots, at the moment I only have bronze growth on that one shoot, which was forced to bud after pruning the branch for cuttings. Every other shoot is green at the moment. I think it has something to do with being under shade all year round. I'll put one out in autumn for and see what happens with fall color. I think flowers will be the secret to identification, mine are still too immature. Here's a picture of C. turczaninovii bark, but i don't think bark is a good indicator of species. The picture was taken with a wet trunk, when it's dry its not so brown.

My autumn colors haven't been fantastic, as I said, I'll put it out for fall. I once got a Stewartia of Ray, it wasn't very strong and I promptly killed it, but he does have an amazing array of plants. I try and get to his nursery whenever I go to Sydney, if not for books than perhaps for some rare exotic plant.

I'm interest to hear what your tests disclose.

Paul

[63pmp]

Brett'

Any follow up from the botanical gardens?

If interested you can get Carpinus turczaninovii seeds from here. 10 seeds = $4 + postage

https://shops.ecorner.com/epages/ecdb2. ... sons_seeds

Paul

[Leigh Taafe]

I have a few hornbeam, two of my better bonsai got a bit burnt by the recent heat we had. I like to grow them in full sun, it helps to keep the nodes close together and keep smaller foliage. When the cooler weather comes, it also helps to bring out their awesome autumn colours.

The big stock tree didn't get burnt Brett, it had a little more shade!

Cheers,
Leigh.

[Bretts]

Any follow up from the botanical gardens?

A bit disapionting really.
The person was unable to identify the species. It does not seem to be for any reason other than being an exotic.
I called them up to clarify and my charm got me hung up on. It seems exotics at this place is not poular
I have found a small seed pod on the tree(I only sent pictures of last years fuit) and this may help with identification but I am now waiting on advice from the manager were to go from here.

I did get a positive ID on a trident maple with single lobed leaves, that changed to trident lobed leaves as being a normal variation in a trident leaf.
I have researched this and can't find anything to back up thier claim though?

[Bretts]

Misho Bonsai seeds in America can send out great quality seeds at a cheaper price But thanks for the thought I will have to browse their catalogue.

[Bretts]

I have a few hornbeam, two of my better bonsai got a bit burnt by the recent heat we had. I like to grow them in full sun, it helps to keep the nodes close together and keep smaller foliage. When the cooler weather comes, it also helps to bring out their awesome autumn colours.

Thats intresting. I do like one of you Hornbeams you have for sale.