Is my Hornbeam too Tall

[kcpoole]

Nice naked Virt Brett

Can you extend the lower left branches just a little?
to me it looks like the Canopy curls back under at that point
Ken

[Bretts]

Yeah I would love to get in there and move some branches around and extend in places I think it can get better but I just start making a mess of the virt.
Might have another play with it later.
Thanks!

[Webos]

Pup,
Your comment on experts at club level is spot on. I see this every time I go to clubs. Often the expert takes over, converts the entire tree with the novice not learning a thing.

[LLK]

Quoting Brett:

(Two images of his hornbeam in leaf)
Carpinus betulus is correct although the leaves can be quite large they also reduce well as can be seen on this tree of Walter Pall's
(image)
Since we are looking at this tree what do you think of the stright section on it

Yes, that seems to be the European or common hornbeam. Thanks for posting those two photos. As a matter of interest: look at the two trees to the right of your hornbeam, in the first image, and imagine their smaller leaves on your hornbeam (not at the same time ) . Does it give you an idea of what the tree looks like, with that size foliage in relation to its present height and width? Doesn't it look more like a 'real' tree, or like some people say, more 'plausible' as a tree? With bonsai being the art of illusion, small foliage helps to create the illusion of a full size tree.
Regarding Walter's hornbeam: do you know its height? It might be quite a bit bigger than yours. This said, the leaves do indeed reduce, only not enough for a middle size tree.
The straight section of Walter's hornbeam is - interestingly - quite similar to yours, only those mighty roots on the left create a diversion. Note that the trunk does not rise as a perfect vertical from soil level, but at a slight angle.
.
To tell you the truth, I don't think you can go far wrong with your hornbeam, whether or not you decide to shorten it, so long as you don't do it drastically. I'd say, let it gain some height gradually, while you concentrate on developing the ramification, and slightly change the angle of planting when you repot. See Melaquin above about pot choice.

Lisa

[LLK]

Quoting Jamie:

hi lisa, at take it your response was aimed at me.

i never said to have a short squat tree persay, i said the top would layer nicely to create a smaller tree, and i would grow the base out taller again with a more flowing line, maybe i wasnt clear enough.

No, Jamie, I wasn't thinking of anyone in particular when I swore at fat, compact trees.
Just getting frustrated by the fixation on short fat trunks in general.
And if those are what you like, by all means Go for it!! So long as we don't all aim for the same things, there'll be a balance in Oz bonsai. Just let's not hesitate to go against the current when it comes to defending our point of view.

Lisa

[Pup]

Pup,
Your comment on experts at club level is spot on. I see this every time I go to clubs. Often the expert takes over, converts the entire tree with the novice not learning a thing.

Yes it is one of my pet hates. I am always preaching against it and getting in trouble.

OOOH Lisa what have you said

Pup

[Grant Bowie]

Ok we have about 1 in 4(15 no and 5 yes) that say they would chop it down. Only one that has explained where or why. Some have stated that they would have gone lower if they could turn back time.
I have little doubt where I am heading with this tree these days and that it will work. Call me whatever but this was to learn about you not me learning how to style a tree. Yet I did not doubt that something some one suggested would be helpful.
I am very much in agreement with what Mela has siad

I'd gradually reduce the height a bit but not drastically and I definitely would not have it any taller.

and I am surprised that others only considered a major chop or to leave be!
To me the very top of the tree at least is too tall. Apart from being a tall weird looking section it is also obviously new growth. I would have chopped this section earlier if I could have made up my mind where.
The fact is I chopped the very top section not too long after this picture was taken and started to grow a new leader last season. Much as is shown here.

010.jpg

Edit: this picture is a slightly different angle but too slack to re-do!

Why I asked for opinions on the height was because I showed a picture of this tree to an accomplished nurseryman and I stated that I thought it needed to be reduced a bit. They said it was fine as is. So I was expecting at least experienced members to tell me to at least reduce the very top of the tree.
Then I could say hey it may not just be the beginner's as an experienced nurseryman told it it was fine at this height!


As I stated I did not doubt that there was something for me to learn here and I did but more of that soon

If you cut where indicated the tree tapers too quickly for a deciduous tree. I would keep most of the height and select in the future.

Grant

[Rhiannon]

Pup,
Your comment on experts at club level is spot on. I see this every time I go to clubs. Often the expert takes over, converts the entire tree with the novice not learning a thing.

As a beginner, this is exactly what worries me! I'd hate to be in that position ever, cause I'd probably be too shy to say, "Wait, aren't you supposed to be showing me how to do this?"

[Bretts]

I'm guessing you mean such as here Grant

short.jpg

I think that is more my bad virt but fair point.
I took the foliage and branches from this Hornbeam of Walters
http://walter-pall.de/hornbeameuropean_ ... index.html
From this I gather I have about 18 years of work to get the branches that I want. Maybe if I get things right our longer growing period can shorten this a little.
I think that gives me plenty of time to regrow the top in whatever taper I need. Even if you are right and it gets as tall agian. Also the amount of carving this tree has I could reduce that taper however I like with just a little more!
Also 18 years is long time for you to remember to tell me I told you so

I'll post the other sides of the tree soon!

[Bretts]

Yes, that seems to be the European or common hornbeam. Thanks for posting those two photos. As a matter of interest: look at the two trees to the right of your hornbeam, in the first image, and imagine their smaller leaves on your hornbeam (not at the same time ) . Does it give you an idea of what the tree looks like, with that size foliage in relation to its present height and width? Doesn't it look more like a 'real' tree, or like some people say, more 'plausible' as a tree? With bonsai being the art of illusion, small foliage helps to create the illusion of a full size tree.
Regarding Walter's hornbeam: do you know its height? It might be quite a bit bigger than yours. This said, the leaves do indeed reduce, only not enough for a middle size tree.
The straight section of Walter's hornbeam is - interestingly - quite similar to yours, only those mighty roots on the left create a diversion. Note that the trunk does not rise as a perfect vertical from soil level, but at a slight angle.
.
To tell you the truth, I don't think you can go far wrong with your hornbeam, whether or not you decide to shorten it, so long as you don't do it drastically. I'd say, let it gain some height gradually, while you concentrate on developing the ramification, and slightly change the angle of planting when you repot. See Melaquin above about pot choice.

Lisa

Walters tree is 70cm high so I think it is a little smaller than mine. I have a little confession though. When I showed my betulus to an American they asked if I was sure it was Betulus as the leaf was so big. Also if you look at the progressions from Walters trees they are never as big as my Betulus.
So I can only hope that once it matters the leaf size will reduce as other Betulus I see internationally as I never see any here

If you think it needs a root to cause a diversion my tree has some of that . I will have to see what I can do! I personally think it is the upward growing branch filling the space where a branch would look wrong coming out of the straight section as it slopes away. (on Walters tree) But I will have to have another look now.

[Bretts]

Here are the other sides as of last Spring.

h1.jpg

h2.jpg

h3.jpg

And this shows the plan I had back then.

h4.jpg

These pics where Posted last June Under Carpinus Betulus
viewtopic.php?f=104&t=1659&p

Sorry for the bad pictures Lisa I can never find the right spot to take them.

[Jamie]

Quoting Jamie:

hi lisa, at take it your response was aimed at me.

i never said to have a short squat tree persay, i said the top would layer nicely to create a smaller tree, and i would grow the base out taller again with a more flowing line, maybe i wasnt clear enough.

No, Jamie, I wasn't thinking of anyone in particular when I swore at fat, compact trees.
Just getting frustrated by the fixation on short fat trunks in general.
And if those are what you like, by all means Go for it!! So long as we don't all aim for the same things, there'll be a balance in Oz bonsai. Just let's not hesitate to go against the current when it comes to defending our point of view.

Lisa

hi mate

completely agree, im not one just to have short squat trees, i have a couple, but i also have some slender, and some in between. diversity creates an interest.
i havent been to keen on the whole trunk/ratio etc threads that have been on as of late, opinions are different from one person to another and everyone is entitled to theres, its when things start getting pushy is when things stop being discussion and become arguement.

Jamie

[Jarrod]

I reckon H3 is a good front, or somewhere between you current front and this. More movement and better taper. I didn't realize there were so many scars!

[Bretts]

I have had that movement catch my eye a few times Jarrod. I think my main dislike is a couple of big chunky roots pointing straight at me. I potted it as I did last time as many liked the deadwood side opposite I started with here and I wanted to consider both sides hence I went a bit flat.
The virt in the pot that I liked above is closer to this movement you see. Maybe I could go even a little more or maybe I could fix the roots

You can see a progression on work I did on this tree from when I started Bonsai on my website. Also many more angles.
http://summersbonsai.com/html/hornbeam__1.html
Haven't touched the website in almost a year But it will save me posting heaps of pics!

[Jarrod]

I reckon fix the roots, do it slowly with selective cutting and shortening over the next 10 years while you grow the branches and then keep developing it for the rest of the time you share with it. Think long term on this big guy!