Home grown nebari

[Bretts]

I am not interested in paying money for trees that need to be repaired unless there is something very outstanding about them, and they are a bit thin on the ground in this country.

This has never been about available stock. It is about whether stock with bad roots is worth buying If it has a good trunk and even branches. We can find plenty of material that is worth air layering if we look.
How about a contest then. Stock from scratch compared to pre grown stock that needs new roots. First to be excepted for display at the national collection wins. All takers
Like I said medium sized stock.

[Pup]

I have stayed out of this debate. For obvious reasons.

Opinions here are exactly that . There are many world class trees all have some fault, like us human being's. Please no more personalty's

Cheers Pup

[Jow]

Jow
Regarding your quote about "without layering this tree could not have had such a perfect nebari":

This is true, the tree in question could not have had such a great change with out layering, it was the perfect tool to use to improve that tree.... that is not to say it is a fix all technique for any stock with bad roots.... again why don't Japanese growers just layer all their field grown stock in stead of doing years of root work on them? It was just last night i was reading an article written by Kimura on field growing quince. He did root work over a period of many years while the trees were in the ground instead of layering off the trees.

I think you are miss quoting her Jow. In fact you are definitely miss quoting as the original quote is

Without layering we could not have created such a perfect nebari

not what you have written.
It was not stated that the tree could not become great without layering for the particular tree this quote was with.
It is stated under a shot that specifically shows the roots up close and is definitely stating nothing more than what I claim.

I have miss quoted. i am at work and don't have time to compose a response such as i would like so i apologise for that slip up, but.....

I don't think that voids my argument just yet.

Bonsai focus get some articles from old Bonsai today who in turn got them from Kinbon. I may be wrong but i think i remember that beech article from bonsai today. There are a number on layering beech. Most were layered to either replace bad roots or to reduce straight sections between the roots and first branch, hence making the tree shorter and more powerful. I am guessing that this quote has been pulled from the full bonsai today progression article which in turn translated it from Japanese to English from Kinbon.

My guess is that the quote relates to the change from the first photo in the original progression. But as you say in the context that the quote appears in Bonsai Focus it can be read as you say.... I guess someone will have to dig out the original articles as i surely don't enough time to warrant sorting through 100+ issues.....

Another thing to note is that when layering beech of this size the layer is left on for several years (read 4 or more) with root work going on in between, which pushes out your first estimations on timeline a bit. If you get a chance to read the full articles via club library or other means they really open your eyes as to the work involved in getting such good results.

[Bretts]

No worries Jow like I said someone has to pull the country out of debt
Yes it is possible that Bonsai Focus has miss quoted but the pictures speak for themselves and they are dam fine Nebari.

[Jow]

There is no doubt that it is a good nebari... I would kill for that tree... no seriously... i would.

It is a damn fine nebari that was created by layering, much like all the others created by growing in the ground and other techniques.

Another example is growing huge taper in trident maples.... part of the taper is created as the trunk grows thicker and is cut back. The other part of the taper is gained as the roots grow outwards pulling the tachiagari (lower trunk) outwards creating flare. This is hard to replicate through layering a mature tree.

I think you will find the short fall of air layering is in the tachiagari (lower trunk). This takes a seriously long time unless in the ground. Layering from what i have seen produces one type of nebari, but not all trees fit that style. Sometimes a more rugged rootage is more suitable, sometimes you may want a turtle back style, sometimes you may want a dinner plate.... Each type will dictate the methods you use to get the results you are after... unfortunately like most things in life there is never just the one correct way to do things and this seems even more so in bonsai.

[Leigh Taafe]

A Maple nebari - put my hand in there to give you an idea of size!

Cheers,
Leigh.

MapleNebari.jpg

[craigw60]

HI Jow,
I have read the article on Kimura growing quince many times and now have quite a few of them in the ground as a result of that piece. They sure take their time thickening. The longer I grow them the more I admire the amazing old Japanese trees of this species. I think these trees should be widely grown here. I have a tree in the garden which is beginning to set fruit and will supply me with plenty of seed.
Brett if you read my post on exhibitions you will see my attitude to competition.
Craig

[63pmp]

Each type will dictate the methods you use to get the results you are after... unfortunately like most things in life there is never just the one correct way to do things and this seems even more so in bonsai.

I have to agree, there is no one way better than another, it's about using the technique that's most appropriate at the time.

Nice hand Leigh. Not a bad maple either!

Paul

[Bretts]

Brett if you read my post on exhibitions you will see my attitude to competition.

We could class it as an experiment

[Bretts]

Another example is growing huge taper in trident maples.... part of the taper is created as the trunk grows thicker and is cut back. The other part of the taper is gained as the roots grow outwards pulling the tachiagari (lower trunk) outwards creating flare. This is hard to replicate through layering a mature tree.

I think you will find the short fall of air layering is in the tachiagari (lower trunk). This takes a seriously long time unless in the ground. Layering from what i have seen produces one type of nebari, but not all trees fit that style.

Again Jow as far as I can fathom the discussion is about starting fresh compared to using existing stock with bad roots. In this situation it would only be fair to consider a well tapered trident with bad roots. The question to me would be how long will it take to replace the roots with a comparable set to a tree grown from scratch.
Only the stubborn would suggest that they could grow a tree quicker than we can replace the roots with a ground layer.

Air layering is not magic I am not claiming it turnes a maple into a pine

[Bretts]

A Maple nebari - put my hand in there to give you an idea of size!

Cheers,
Leigh.

MapleNebari.jpg

No reason to layer that off Leigh . It seems to me that the lower roots need trimming more often or maybe harsher to encourage the growth and ramification of the surface roots. A little spreading here and there as well.
What you say?

[Pup]

Bonsai Today number 33 page 39 Field grown Maple. Being Airlayered.

This edition covers a lot of reason for airlayering. Still have not found the quote.

Cheers Pup

[anttal63]

No reason like a bad reason in the first place...

[Jow]

Again Jow as far as I can fathom the discussion is about starting fresh compared to using existing stock with bad roots. In this situation it would only be fair to consider a well tapered trident with bad roots.

What i am trying to say is you wont get a well tapered trident trunk with bad roots... you need good roots to grow good tachiagari (lower trunk). If it has a one sided root ball or one dominant root it will pull the trunk out in that area and thicken the area of trunk adjacent to it and those areas with poor roots will not thicken at the same rate hence leaving you with a poorly tapered trunk.

If you layer one of these tridents with poor roots you will end up with a defective trunk with good roots... not a good trunk with good roots as you might have got growing from seed and doing correct root work and growing techniques.

Therefore layering is only good for certain situations... At least that's my opinion of why those growing in the ground in Japan don't layer off every tree, Tachiagari.

Also you should read a few articles as to the time frame between layering and having the roots age to match the trunk enough to be accepted at kokufu. In large trees its not such a quick proposition.

I know for a fact there is at least on grower famous for the fact he grew maples from seed to Kokufu in under 15 years... and these are big trees. I am guessing the beech you linked to would have a similar time frame to get from initial layer to exhibition standard.

[craigw60]

Hi Jow,
Do the Japanese grow tridents from seed or do they use cuttings from forms selected for whatever good attributes they may have ?
Craig