when do you water? morning or night? poll and discussion!

[Jamie]

ok, i havent checked the links and all that but i am just throwing a thought out there,

do you think it possible to "farm" thes mirco organisms and place them in the soil of trees we are growing if we wanted too?


jamie

[Jarrod]

Don't see the point Jamie, we feed the trees with nitrogen they can absorb.

[Jamie]

yea ok...good call

my bad, was a thought i didnt think through obviously...


jamie

[63pmp]

My understanding is that the bacteria take the N2 from the soil atmosphere and then supply it in a form the plants can use, the plants provide carbohydrate to the bacteria. Very few plants can have this symbiosis and it only works when there is insufficient plant absorbable nitrogen in the ground. Also the inoculation of plant roots is rather haphazard, not all plants that form symbiotic relationships will develop one (is this English?) (A bit like pine trees with mycorrhiza) Which is why they inoculate clover and lucerne seed for agricultural purposes.

Maybe I'm just splitting hairs, but it's not the tree's that absorbs nitrogen N2 from the air. Interesting though, how such a relationship could evolve.

Paul

[Bretts]

My understanding is that the bacteria take the N2 from the soil atmosphere and then supply it in a form the plants can use,
Maybe I'm just splitting hairs, but it's not the tree's that absorbs nitrogen N2 from the air

As I said the literature states otherwise Paul.

How NFTs Work Biological Nitrogen Fixation

Working with a group of bacteria called rhizobia, NFTs [Nitrogen Fixing Trees] are able to pull nitrogen out of the air and accumulate it in their tissue. The bacteria, wich are normally free-living in the soil in the native range of a particular legume, infect (inoculate) the root hairs of the plant and are housed in small root structures called nodules. The plant provides energy to feed the bacteria and fuel the nitrogen fixation process. In return, the plant receives nitrogen for growth.

Working with a group of bacteria called rhizobia, legumes are able to pull nitrogen out of the air and accumulate it biologically.

You can inoculate the microorganisms Jamie. But as Jarrod states there would be little benefit. I think I will be extra careful when re potting alder now though as it definitely can't hurt to have this process manufacturing Nitrates. I am starting to wonder if Proteoid roots such as on Banksia are similar?

What I find most interesting here is it shows that trees are able to absorb "stuff" from the air. N2 can be But only specific plants have use for it and that would take time for the bacteria to convert it. But I think there will be other minerals and trace elements especially in a rain storm that the plant can use which accounts for the glow of health plants show after a good down poor!

[dayne]

you can improve a soils quality in lots of ways in farming it is often farm a paddock for a season or two then grow legumes for a season either productive farming or just a plant that is grown only for the use of replacing nitrogen in to the soil then at the end of the season these plants are turned over back in to the soil which helps in moisture rention and enriching organic matter in soil could you grow legumes in your pot to yes would it help may b would it look good no the japenes would do it if it was a good idea may be they do and i dont know interesting idea tho

[Bretts]

I did give this a thought Dayne. I wonder if their is a nitrogen fixing plant that would look good as a soil cover? Be better than baby tears

[63pmp]

Hmmmmm!

It's been a long time since I studied nitrogen fixation, so I'm enjoying the opportunity to debate this as a tool for revision. This is all academic regarding bonsai horticulture, of course, as Nitrogen is only one of many important elements for plant health, by fertilising we provide all the N that is required for plant growth. However for the point of accuracy I feel the conversation needs further input.

I read your reference and could not find this bit at all (your quote);

How NFTs Work Biological Nitrogen Fixation
Working with a group of bacteria called rhizobia, NFTs [Nitrogen Fixing Trees] are able to pull nitrogen out of the air and accumulate it in their tissue. The bacteria, which are normally free-living in the soil in the native range of a particular legume, infect (inoculate) the root hairs of the plant and are housed in small root structures called nodules. The plant provides energy to feed the bacteria and fuel the nitrogen fixation process. In return, the plant receives nitrogen for growth.

I did however find this (the sites quote);

How Biological Nitrogen Fixation Works in Legumes
Working with a group of bacteria called rhizobia, legumes are able to pull nitrogen out of the air and accumulate it biologically. The bacteria, which are normally free-living in the soil in the native range of a particular legume, infect (inoculate) the root hairs of the plant and are housed in small root structures called nodules. Energy is provided by the plant to feed the bacteria and fuel the nitrogen fixation process. In return, the plant receives nitrogen for growth.


The first sentence is completely different. And changes the context of the paragraph.

Nowhere does this site say N2 is delivered to the nodules via the plant. Though this may be inferred by the way they have written the article. However, I still maintain that N2 is taken directly from the soil atmosphere rather than from the host plant.

Here are other sites which offer more accurate information.

http://www.biology.ed.ac.uk/research/gr ... trogen.htm

And this one

http://www.elmhurst.edu/~chm/onlcourse/ ... cycle.html

which states that the N2 is taken from air for the nitrification process.

Paul

[Bretts]

There are certain nitrogen fixing organisms that absorb N2 from the air but as the text states there are also ones that have it supplied by the tree.

Here is a link to the text that I posted.
http://cstaf.ifas.ufl.edu/nftguide.pdf

How Biological Nitrogen Fixation Works in Legumes
Working with a group of bacteria called rhizobia, legumes are able to pull nitrogen out of the air and accumulate it biologically. The bacteria, which are normally free-living in the soil in the native range of a particular legume, infect (inoculate) the root hairs of the plant and are housed in small root structures called nodules. Energy is provided by the plant to feed the bacteria and fuel the nitrogen fixation process. In return, the plant receives nitrogen for growth.

The first sentence is completely different. And changes the context of the paragraph.

Nowhere does this site say N2 is delivered to the nodules via the plant. Though this may be inferred by the way they have written the article. However, I still maintain that N2 is taken directly from the soil atmosphere rather than from the host plant.

It states it pulls the nitrogen out of the air and accumulates it then describes more of the process. To pick it apart as you do is so far from "charity to the author" that it is stealing from the illiterate I don't know why you find it so hard to believe that Trees can absorb a gaseous form as they do it all the time with Co2.
I think there are many things here that can be related to bonsai horticulture but
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink.

[Bretts]

http://bahrijaoasis.blogspot.com/2009/0 ... gumes.html

We are currently researching nitrogen fixing trees for arid regions.
These trees work in a symbiotic relationship with various fungi such as mychorrozium and or rhizobium. In a simplified way, one can say that these trees absorb nitrogen from the air and transport it to their roots while the fungi and bacteria does the rest of the work at the root nodules.


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 133726.htm

ScienceDaily (June 20, 2008) — Nitrogen is essential to all life on Earth, and the processes by which it cycles through the environment may determine how ecosystems respond to global warming. But certain aspects of the nitrogen cycle in temperate and tropical forests have puzzled scientists, defying, in a sense, the laws of supply and demand. Trees capable of extracting nitrogen directly from the atmosphere often thrive where it is readily available in the soil, but not where it is in short supply.

[63pmp]

Brett,

Where discussing science, and point of accuracy is important. This is why they are still arguing over global warming after twenty odds years, no doubt they will go on for another hundred. My problem here is that these people/sites you are referencing are using general, unspecific terms. They use the term legume or NFTS as an entity, a whole thing, including the rhizobia. Which is misleading.

The interesting thing about science magazines, like Science Daily and New Scientist, is that they often leave out important facts. They have limited space and are we writing for scientists and so often assume things are understood. The most important aspect of that article reference was left out; how does N fixation cause insoluble phosphorus to be released? I would guess from the fact the N fixation process has acidity as a by-product. But that’s another discussion. So one has to be careful about using them as reference material.

I never said I don’t believe trees absorb nitrogen, I just don’t think they supply it to the nodules, for one simple reason. Nitrogen gas is not very soluble in water, just 0.017 g per litre, compared to oxygen, at 0.04, and carbon dioxide at 1.45g per litre ( this is pure water so I would expect slightly higher values in sap, it may actually be less when you consider that the sap is already full of O2 and CO2 and other stuff like carbohydrates. You can only dissolve so much stuff in a liquid). However, this is an extremely tortuous route for N2 to take simply to provide bugger all at the other end. While N2 in the soil is 78% of the atmosphere and much more readily available than extracting it from sap. (figures sourced from SI chemical data, 2nd edition 1989)

No doubt there is some tree or plant somewhere that has symbiotic bacteria sourcing Nitrogen from sap, there is always an exception somewhere. However, there is a much better source of nitrogen in the air about the nodules.

As for relevance to bonsai, not so. Simply because nitrogen fixation only provides one element. You still have to fertilise a potted container with all the other elements. The nature of fertilisers means that abundant N is supplied. This is because all nitrate salts are soluble in water, where as other metal salts eg Calcium Sulphate, are sparingly soluble or not at all. So fertilizers, to get all the metals to dissolve and behave together are principally made from salts of nitrate and EDTA (ethylene diamine tetra acetic acid). If you use an organic fertilizer it, by its very nature, comes with nitrogen.

Since you’re getting cranky I’ll leave it here.

Paul

[Bretts]

Working with a group of bacteria called rhizobia, NFTs [Nitrogen Fixing Trees] are able to pull nitrogen out of the air and accumulate it in their tissue

Sounds pretty specific to me. Why would they discuss the tree pulling nitrogen out of the air and accumulating it in the article if it had nothing to do with the process. I believe this is from Agroforester who are connected to Nitrogen Fixing Trees Associacion.
To say that a scientific magazine may have left something out is feasible but that is a very weak argument when other texts are stating the same thing? Most of the scientific explanations are about how the Nodules are formed, how the bacteria converts the nitrogen and how it benefits the soil. Just because they don't see any need to explain how the tree transports the nitrogen to the roots (considering plants transport all soughts of minerals up and down itself and that is a whole nother subject) This is no proof that the articles are lacking they simply state that it does.
This reminds me of a debate with a mate a few years ago. After he was given some advice to root prune in winter. I told him that was possible but really the best time is in early spring. I showed him several books that clearly stated re-pot in early spring as the buds swell.
He stated the books say to re-pot in Early spring they do not say to root prune Off course it is obvious that they mean to root prune if needed when you re-pot but It can be very hard to find a reference that specifically states prune your roots in early spring.

Where discussing science, and point of accuracy is important

I never said I don’t believe trees absorb nitrogen

No you said they are unable too!

Plants themselves are unable to take nitrogen (N2) from the air.

And now you have swapped to stating it is very unlikely that they can transport it because it is not very soluble? As I stated since trees transport all soughts of minerals hormones and whatever else up and down the tree I think you will need more than this guess to refute what the articles are saying, as a point of accuracy that you say is so important!

Not cranky just suprised that some one with a degree in this area is showing such poor critical thinking skills. It makes the debate so much less informative and much less fun

As for relevance to bonsai, not so. Simply because nitrogen fixation only provides one element.

If I can get my Alders and casuarinas(they are another NTFs) to produce a little extra very natural nitrogen by trying to preserve the bacteria then I would say that is a great help. Just understanding more about how plants and bacteria work together I see as a great benefit in bonsai horticulture.