My Pine seedlings

[stork]

Hi all been on here a while but never posted. But it's time I get help and advice
I'm from Melbourne northern suburbs.

A few years ago I collected pines cones from the outskirts of Portarlington and with no experience i thought lets give it a go.
The first thing i did when I got home was I soaked the cones in lime sulfer to make sure I didn't bring unwanted pests in my garden.
I need help identifying them as I can't work it out as I don't have enough knowledge.
Then after soaking them in warm water with a touch of seasol half didn't sink but I still planted them and they all sprouted.

I have been following Ryceman3 project on THE JWP PROJECT, and how great has it been following him. I have the same issue I can't just plant 10 seeds I have to plant 100 plus haha.

Now by fluke I have done almost everything he has except stem cuttings as I didn't understand the benefits.



Cones in lime sulfur


Only did a few



This is them.

Can I get some help first in what kind of pine this is?



This is the mother tree in full

My problem is when replanting them or even trying to wire them they wither away
9 out 10 times.



This happens to all of them and I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I tried repotting in winter, spring didn't make a difference no fertiliser to begin with kept in shade for a few days then in sun. Is it because I didn't stem cut them?

I don't know I'm at a loss so hoping I can get some help.

I also recently bought 50 jbp seeds from Neil which was more like 70+ very generous and I soaked them in water 90% didn't sink but I planted them and they are all coming out going crazy so I'm guessing the soaking water method is not good indication on pine seeds.

New jbp seedlings I'm so excited my first ever black pines.

I'm going to follow Ryceman3 guide completely with stem cutting them when thrte ready.
I will keep you posted

And last of all I was at aldi on the weekend they have cheap but good seed trays it's a 4 packs in one so 24 x 4 pack so 96 cells for $10 pretty good. Not as good as the green shed ones but for the price and quantity it was worth it if anyone wants any.. I thought I just throw that in case your looking for cheap alternative.





I will put my stem cuttings in these trays hope there ok to use..

Sorry for long probably boring post but need to start somewhere.

Thanks all

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[shibui]

Seedling cuttings is used to get a better root system started. instead of 1 or2 down growing roots you can get a mass of lateral roots that grow out sideways - similar to layering. Seed cutting also shortens the stem if you are trying to grow smaller pine bonsai where we need branches lower.
I tried it a few times but did not get great results. I get better results by just trimming the down growing roots when potting the seedlings on. roots can usually be cut quite hard on seedlings.
I can also take cuttings from the tops of seedlings so when they reach 10 cm tall I cut off 5 or 6 cm which makes the stump grow low roots and I can strike the tops just like seedling cuttings as well.

Not sure what the problem with repotting is. I don't seem to have any problem transplanting with or without root trimming or wiring and fertilising. What potting mix are you using with these pine seedlings? Watering?

Re ID of the Port pine.
1st ID feature for pines is close up of the foliage. Some pines have needles in pairs, some in clusters of 3 and some with 5 needles in each bunch
2nd is bark. Need a close shot with some scale (hand, can, etc) to see whether the bark is rough, smooth, etc
3rd is cones. Shape and size can help with ID so needs scale so use a ruler when taking shots of cones. Also a closer shot of the cones showing the points on each cone scale.

Just from the general look of the tree I'm guessing radiata or maybe halipensis. No not halipensis as the seedlings already starting to get adult foliage. Not quite clear but it appears the seedling has adult needles in 3s?

[Raniformis]

Oh my, go hard or go home How much sun are they getting? Your problem began before repotting, they're all spindly sticks. Cones are radiata.

[stork]

I will get more photos up today if I can. To try identify them better.
They didn’t get much sun in the winter, so I moved them in full sun in September

I recently cut the heads of the pines and new growth is slowly coming in but I not touching them after that as they wither and die.

The soil I use on these was native mix I stop using it now, and then moved to pumice with 10% bark 5% zeolite.

Can you help by explaining where I went wrong before repotting so I can learn where I’m going wrong.

Should I have stem cut them? Not enough sun in winter was my fault.

I’m going to use the young pines as experiment on advice I get.

Pines are knew to me so any advice will be much appreciated

Cheers George

[Ryceman3]

Agree with others that these appear to be radiata. If you count the needles in 3s (not pairs) that is further confirmation. Radiata are very common down that way (Portarlington) so I think you'll find that is what you have.

I will get more photos up today if I can. To try identify them better.
They didn’t get much sun in the winter, so I moved them in full sun in September
I recently cut the heads of the pines and new growth is slowly coming in but I not touching them after that as they wither and die.
...

The more sun the better in my experience. Your trees might've been weakened by not being exposed to it and as a result very unhappy about your decision to repot. The seedling shots you posted shows them looking quite long, spindly and thin. I don't really grow radiata from seed but that looks different to other pine species I have grown.
The bit about "cutting the heads of the pines" is interesting. Do you mean "decandling". If so, these are way too young to be doing that, and it is way too early in the season. Maybe I'm interpreting it wrong, but if not that is going to cause a bit of carnage.
Stem cutting won't guarantee success when repotting. Unless you have strong seedlings to begin with, stem cutting will probably do the opposite. All it does is get a more radial spread of roots (roots all coming from the same place, the cut site) closer to the foliage than what would otherwise be the case. It won't help the tree grow stronger, healthier roots. Proper watering, sun and fertiliser is the best way to achieve that.
In any case, these seedlings are past the point where stem cutting would be an option.
I think given the size of the seedlings you show and the pots they are in, you can hold off on repotting until they have a chance to strengthen a bit.
Good luck with them, Radiata can make great bonsai so I hope you can get a few to thrive and develop.

[TimIAm]

It's not because you did or didn't stem cut them. That has no affect on whether or not they can withstand a repot or wiring in their first year.

I'd say it is more than likely technique. Because it should be possible to repot pines at this age and it should be possible to wire pines at this age without them dying.

I'm giving feedback based upon a single photo, so I could be off the mark:

First question, why? It appears you moved the tree from a plastic grow pot into some sort of ceramic container? Second why, it appears you cut off 2 thirds of the growth. Third why, what are you trying to achieve with the wiring? The wire is hard to see properly in the picture but it looks like a super tight loop around the base of the tree.

With the wire, I don't see it as doing anything beneficial and only adds risk to killing the tree. Not saying "wiring kills trees", but at this age of the tree it is unnecessary and for a beginner it is possible that incorrect technique could damage the young stalk or roots for zero gain. You could easily get the same bends into the tree at 2 years when the tree is more mature and resilient.

With the repot, unless you are aiming to rework the roots or the seedling is crowded, I don't see any need to repot. What was your goal in repotting the tree that died? Why did you change the pot? It only introduces a change in growing condition. When I did root work on my pine seedlings they go back gently in exactly the same place they came out of or into identical growing conditions.

Why did you feel necessary to cut 2 thirds of the growth off? I can guess why, but if it's to induce low down growth... similar to the wiring, you are doing it way too early for none of the benefit and all of the risk. Why no benefit? Because in 2 years time you can cut back a larger, healthier hardier tree for better results.

Have a look at the size of R3's tree when he first decided to prune them, and as he mentioned, it was done with a purpose because the upper growth was shading out the lower growth. https://www.ausbonsai.com.au/forum/view ... 74#p272274

With bonsai I like to ask myself firstly why I am doing any technique to a tree, then I question if it's the right approach and then I want to know when is the best time to do it.

[stork]

Thanks guys for feedback I should have posted earlier regarding pine trees.
Learn from that I have..
I didn’t get a chance today to take photos but will do tomorrow.

I had a Quick Look this evening I will send pics of the candles some have 3 needles and some 5 so I did grab them from multiple trees last year so maybe there different.

I didn’t realise that 1 cone can have so many seeds in it so I had so many cones sitting in the sun last year that when they cracked open I had over 500 seeds and still have so many.

So when I put them in water for 24 hours then planted them about 80 seeds I didn’t expect so many to germinate. That’s why I had so many.

Ok let’s start with Q1 I only moved a few into ceramic pots because it looked nice and green and just thought I plant them in there for looks no other reason.

Because of the quantity I had i was just watching youtube videos and then just trying them on these young pines and see what happens obviously my inexperience showed and so I cut to hard wrong time anything you shouldn’t do I did I cut them because I like shohin bonsai so your guess is right following a few videos on bud cutting, the wiring was for 2 reasons to see how they bend and just practice wiring pines no other reason.

I think I have not been patient and rather than speak with you guys on the forum (I’m a shy keep to myself guy) I never asked, I made the mistake of ohh yeah look at that YouTube video let’s go do it. I should have paid more attention because looking at some videos most work on pines start after about 3 years I only noticed that tonight after reading what you wrote.

I definitely should have left them in winter sun they got no sun for 3 months so that’s most likely why they look poor.

I have new batch coming out now of about 80 seeds again plus the jbp of about 70 seeds from Shubui..

I can honestly say it’s been a fun and exciting experience even though the outcome hasn’t been to successful I have enjoyed just being outdoors with them i don’t like being indoors so being sourounded by nature feels me with joy.

I appreciate everyone’s feedback I was a bit scared in posting but I’m glad I did now.

I will add photos tomorrow to give a better look and the pines and the ones I haven’t touched since germinating i will remove one from a pot with out touching the roots so you guys can have a look at the root development and give me feedback.

Thanks George

[shibui]

I really like to see people trying new things so congrats for having a go, even though that didn't work out so well this time. I've learned most of what I know from the same school of hard knocks and have occasionally discovered that what everyone is telling us is not the whole story and there are other possibilities that also work well.
I'm still not convinced that wiring young seedlings is detrimental. I've done similar in the past and again this spring without huge losses. Whether that's long term desirable could be debated but it certainly won't kill the seedlings - at least in my experience.
I've also root pruned hundreds of JBP seedlings really hard over many years and that also does not kill them.

I'd like to see some good photos of each step of the process next time. Maybe we can pick up something from that and help solve the issue for you.

[stork]

Hi all

Thanks for positive feedback

Here are more pics I took today

I am going to use these pines as testing and learning

I am going to focus and document the JBP I purchased and a few fresh seeds of what I currently have.
I was overwhelmed today looking at the pines but I enjoy just being out there with my plants and it brings peace and comfort.

These are the cones I had these are a bit smaller. I had bigger, more developed cones.





The seeds



Fresh seeds from cones about 2 weeks old



This is some of my first seeds it's in a bigger pot so it grew pretty fast I think this is almost 2 years old.





Another one





And here is my testing with wire





A few more young ones





Hope the pics are OK I just trying to learn to add pics with this app.

The needles from one of the pines



Let me know what you guys think..

Have no idea why pics come out sideways

Cheers George

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[shibui]

Still having problems with ID.
The cones look a bit like radiata but are smaller -then I read the text saying these were undersized cones There's not a lot of difference between different species so it's important to have average or representative examples rather than odd ones.

Radiata normally has 3 needles per fascicle so just wondering if all the needles are in 5s or is that bunch an odd one too?

Another Pinus Id feature is how the cones grow on the tree - clusters or single, short stem or no stem, upright or hanging, etc. Some pics of the parent tree showing cones on the tree would be helpful.
Bark is often referred to in the ID keys too. Pics of the bark on lower trunk and further out on branches may also be useful.

No scale for the needle bunch. One of the distinguishing features in the key is average needle length - more or less than 11 cm.

Most of the 5 needle pines I looked at have very different cones and are classified as soft cone species. Still trying to work through the hard cone species.

[stork]

I will be going to Portarlington in the next few weeks and will take better pics then

For now I zoomed in some pics from 1 of the mother trees. Not sure if it will help but let's see what you think.


That was the best needle shot I could get.




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[treeman]

Looks every bit like a radiata. The five needles are a bit of a head scratcher though.
Regarding radiatas on the peninsula, I for one am getting sick to death of the relentless destruction of these beautiful trees in their prime. Just down the road from me there are several properties with radiatas lining the boundary. I guess most of them to be between 80 and 120 years and in perfect picturesque health and magnificent with their horizontal gestures spreading across the sky. They are the only trees in this area that achieve that height and are part of the history and beauty of country Victoria. Since I have been here many trees have been cut down and burnt and replaced with scrappy, crappy natives that do nothing for anything. Here, there are no pine seedlings to be seen so calling them weeds is preposterous. Besides adding substantially to the character of the area (this is not the bush), they are well known food source for the black cockatoos, 50 of which which moved down to the area from the ranges after Black Saturday and are still here. Meanwhile, Pittosporum undulatum is choking the natural bush to the exclusion of everything else in some places but not a word about that horrible native weed. Useless ''green slime'' councils that would not have a clue if their arses were on fire. Ignorant bastards, the lot of them. At least they are not cutting down Cypress macrocarpa..yet. Although just up the street we had a new resident move in and immediately cut down 3 century old cypresses because...well because he could I guess and now he has an area without trees! How wonderful for him!
Ok, time to go water.....

[DocBanksis]

production line 101. Well done