Bad nursery stock

[Mickeyjaytee]

Hey guys,

So over a long period I’ve bought quite a few shimpaku to grow up and turn into bonsai. They are all standard stock bought locally. A member from my bonsai club suggested that I check how far down the roots start which, in doing some wiring and repotting, they all seem to start low down and they’re straight as a nail.

I’ve tried bending them but, they just won’t budge or, they look rather silly with a blatant curve. It’s really got me down and irritated. I feel that the only way to deal with shimpaku and getting a nice bent trunk down low is to get them super young.

I’d say most of the trunks are pinky size or bigger. My wiring isn’t too good either. I do try though.

I thought I’d ask for some advice. They’re my favourite bonsai tree yet, I feel like after getting them through summer and having good growth, keeping them alive, getting nice branch bends in them etc, I’ve just taken 10 steps back with bad stock and it’s going to be years upon years now to have any kind of size as to I’ll have to start fresh with cuttings.

What can I do? What would you do?

Any help would be appreciated. Feeling very deflated

[Daluke]

1) you can try and bend with a rio bar
2) you can try and air layer
3) you can sell and buy what you are after

Can you post some images? It mightn’t be as bad you are making out

[KIRKY]

Agree some photos will help. Is it the roots that start low and are dead straight? Or am I miss reading it.
Cheers
Kirky

[Mickeyjaytee]

Thanks Daluke,

Here’s a few pics. The wire came loose when bending one. Rookie mistake

[Mickeyjaytee]

Agree some photos will help. Is it the roots that start low and are dead straight? Or am I miss reading it.
Cheers
Kirky

Sorry what I meant was that the trunk was buried deep in the soil so when you remove the top soil to go in search of where the roots start, there a significant straight trunk now that I’ve uncovered and I can’t seem to bend or twist it

[shibui]

Buried trunk with roots deep is a perennial problem for commercial nurseries. They tend to pay as little as possible for staff to do the mundane jobs like potting up. Low pay means less skilled labourers who do not care about the product but the nursery can sell at lower price or sell at competitive price and make more profit.
It is definitely quicker and easier to put the small plant into the bottom of the new pot and top up with potting mix so that ends up being the practice. Good bonsai nursery will repot properly at each change of pot but that takes time and costs more. Expect to pay more for well grown and well developed stock for bonsai. Maybe that bargain is not really a bargain?

In the old days we, as buyers, were told to dig down to check for roots. Maybe that message needs to be resurrected?

Junipers are relatively flexible so trunks up to around pencil thick can be bent a bit. More advanced techniques allow bending even thicker wood but those bends don't always look great.
Another option when starting with thicker trunks is to layer where you want the roots. Shimpaku root really easy so should only take a year to get good roots where you want them.
Starting with thin whips means you can put whatever bends and twists you like. Any mistakes are then yours to own. Downside is that it takes me 7-10 years to develop reasonable trunks from thin whips.

[dmattar]

Check out a Japanese bonsai channel called bonsaiq. They have some videos from a grower, kagomiya who specialises in tight bends on smaller stock, even ones around the same trunk girth as yours. He uses general tools like needle nose pliers for wire application and quick release groove joint pliers for tightening bends with guide wire assistance.


Your other option is to put basic bends in with crazy ones on the terminal end of the cutting but maintain your low branches. Then you air layer off the top section or strike as cuttings. Downside is this will probably add one to two years to the process for quality.

[Mickeyjaytee]

Thanks for the replies guys.

Shibui, yeah I know what they do in nurseries it sucks. The place I got it isn’t even a bonsai nursery but, they do get bonsai stuff in every now and then. Shimpaku is just impossible to get in WA. Well, decent sized or prebonsai material at least anyway. Many people have told me due to its slow growing nature it just isn’t worth growing so, any you see around are just cuttings for sale.

I guess that’s why I’m so disheartened. While the current trees would only be a few years old, they were getting there and it would’ve been possible for some mame or shohin. Now that’s gone out the window and now I’m years and years off.

Honestly I’d like to have just one bonsai and I’d be happy!

dmattar- cheers for the reply mate! I love bonsaiQ! I’ll have a sift through the videos and see what I can find. I don’t have any tools for bending though so maybe that’s something I can look into.

Do you know of any other Japanese youtube channels that offer subtitles? I have a couple and they’re really good. The youtube algorithms don’t usually pick up the Japanese ones in searches making it a bit difficult to find good content.

Oh also, I heard you can get grafting orb things off of eBay. Does anyone have a link or does anyone have a product they can recommend? I’ve never done it!

I think perhaps some of my problems with bending is that I’m repotting at the same time and the bottom of the wire just won’t anchor and that’s giving me a headache especially with 5mm. It made sense though as to I could see where the roots started (sometimes there’s a few “fluff” roots above where the actually system starts).

[SuperBonSaiyan]

Don't get disheartened - lean into what the plant is offering you. This video shows a good example of upright Shimpaku.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QlzgDtpg1M

Grow it on, bend the top and air-layer it to get the contorted style you want. Keep growing out the base to get an upright tree.

[KIRKY]

Here’s a few of my tried and tested methods over the years.
Stop watering trees a couple of weeks before trying to wire helps with less cracking. Also to avoid cracking/breaking larger material do it gradually. You can’t wire thick material in one shot it doesn’t work with out breakage. Wire and bend as far as it will go then leave it for a few days even a week or two and bend again repeat and rise, it will slowly get you some movement. Also don’t plant them straight when repotting.
Your other option is to cut a channel and place cuttings into it, eventually they mesh with the older trunk and create a bulge that creates the look of movement. You don’t need to cut the channel straight you can corkscrew it if you like and pin or staple cuttings into it to hold. (fyi Similar tech as you would use to create a better nebari in tridents).
Another option when planting on an angle, cut as for an airlayer and bury cut position to root this will give you movement down low and you won’t loose too much of the original growth thickness.
Cheers
Kirky

[Patmet]

Honestly to me, they don't look that bad at all. You can definitely work with those. It's just the skills that come with time and experience that you can't learn overnight. If you utilise some of the tips and techniques others have offered in this thread you can get these headed on the right track in the meantime just enjoy the process. It will take time but you will get there.

If you are after a more refined looking bonsai you can be proud of while you are waiting for your young junipers I would suggest focusing on Australian natives. You can get a shohin display ready tree in a matter of several years with the right techniques with a native. I have been doing bonsai roughly 5 years now and the only trees I have in refinement are natives. I'm still developing all my exotic species as like you, I have had to grow them from young material.

[Trimmy]

There's always the ground layer option. Bring the roots up to where you thought they started. You might even be able to salvage a second plant from the original root ball.

[shibui]

I've taken to wiring trunks when they are bare rooted. That lets me get the bends right down low near the roots. When wiring potted trunks I would always have a straight section near the base. May be just a matter of working out how to wire better.
Kirky's tips on bending are spot on. Slightly dehydrated trunks definitely bend further without cracking and I also get much more bend by letting rest for a few hours or days then trying again. I guess the rest period lets the cells and fibres relax so then they can bend even further but it definitely works.

Shimpaku are definitely slow to develop so better stock will never be cheap. If buyers won't pay the price of production we are likely to turn to faster growing, more profitable species.

This is definitely a case for growing your own stock. It may take a few years but you will have exactly what you want or at least only have yourself to blame. Growing your own also gives you a much better appreciation of what it takes to produce good stock.

[Mickeyjaytee]

Thanks for all the replies everyone, you have my deepest gratitude. I will try out a few different methods suggested. Impatience isn’t my friend I know, I just so desperately want a bonsai to look after and be proud of.

I’m really curious kirky about the channel method. Is it planting the cuttings right next to the trunk so they fuse? I’m unsure and haven’t seen anything like that on a juniper before. Are there any resources or videos I could see for demonstrations?

Perhaps the wire is a little too thick. I can’t seem to bend it well low down. It 5mm I think, perhaps 6mm. I think my working is probably abominable

Thanks again everyone, you all rock!

[KIRKY]

Thanks for all the replies everyone, you have my deepest gratitude. I will try out a few different methods suggested. Impatience isn’t my friend I know, I just so desperately want a bonsai to look after and be proud of.

I’m really curious kirky about the channel method. Is it planting the cuttings right next to the trunk so they fuse? I’m unsure and haven’t seen anything like that on a juniper before. Are there any resources or videos I could see for demonstrations?

Perhaps the wire is a little too thick. I can’t seem to bend it well low down. It 5mm I think, perhaps 6mm. I think my working is probably abominable

Thanks again everyone, you all rock!

Yes it is just like planting the cutting right next to the trunk. However instead of just leaning it against the trunk you actually carve out a sliver in the trunk the size of the cutting and gently push the cutting into the channel. You can carve any shape on the straight trunk and then insert the cutting as the cutting starts to grow/fuse it grows a bulge making it look like a bend or twist pending on your carving line. You can just bulge out one side or do some half moon carves to create a twisting movement look. If you looking up fusion on tridents or juniper you may find something on it.
Also if your wire is too think to bend. Then go down in a size or two and put two or three bits of wire together. You can wrap the wires together with budding tape to make it easier to handle. Then wrap around the trunk you might find that easier. I find using a wire that is too thick won’t secure/bend close enough to the trunk the bend properly. I think this is your problem looking at the pictures imo

Cheers
Kirky