Trident trunk growing questions

[ben17487]

Hey guys, got a few questions that have been rolling around in my head for a while regarding techniques of growing trucks..
I've got a few plants that I'm growing on but I'll use this trident as the topic.

Basically I'm unsure of if I should be pruning the tree in any way or just letting it grow out of control.
Am I aiming to let the leader gain as much height as possible? Should I be trimming any of the sideward growing branches and pinching buds to direct energy upward? Is there any point in defoliating to promote extra growth?
My ultimate goal is to grow trunk girth and am trying a few methods including a few trees in the ground.

I have patchy knowledge of trunk growing as I've read so many things about it but I always find they lack the details I'm curious about.

Any help and advise is greatly appreciated!
Cheers guys

[shibui]

In my experience you should combine pruning with allowing free growth.
Having just 1 strong leader will give you a telephone pole. Sure the trunk will thicken quick but when you prune you'll just have a stump with a huge scar but no taper - Good bonsai material

I prune the leaders early to promote several leaders then allow those all to grow. At next pruning some can be cut off completely and the best placed one cut back hard. That gives both movement and taper to the trunk you are growing. the pruning will result in more shoots that can all be allowed to grow for another season = even more possibilities for pruning to give even more taper and movement.

Height alone does not = thickeness. thickness results from total growth so side branches also contribute to trunk thickness. Leave them to grow. They also promote thickening lower on the trunk = taper.

There is no point in trying to develop branches while growing to promote trunk thickness. Any branches you develop will end up too thick and/or straight. Prune nearly everything off at the end of trunk thickening and grow better branching from the resulting new shoots that will form. This only applies to trees that back bud easily like tridents. You'll need different techniques for conifers.

[ben17487]

Thanks so much shibui!
Some very helpful advice. So in regards to movement and taper, I was going to grow it till the trunk is 1/3 of the final thickness then chop to the lowest branch then grow on, will that not be enough to introduce taper and movement?
How do you suggest I get the best movement from pruning/wiring techniques?

Cheers!

[wrcmad]

I agree 100% with what shubui says above, however, I use a different technique.... because I am after a different end result.
You have to match your technique to your aim.

I know from previous discussions that shibui is developing nicely shaped trunks of good proportions, with good movement, taper, and a fair nebari.
He will end up with some really nice trees.
However, It is my opinion (and it is only my opinion and personal taste - it doesn't make me right or wrong), that a nicely developed trunk of good proportions is much prettier to the eye, and a much classier finished tree, in a Japanese maple, rather than a trident... so I use shibui's method for my Japanese maples.

My aim with tridents is all about nebari and taper (sumo). IMHO, this is what tridents lend themselves to (as well as ROR). Any other form I'd rather see in a Japanese maple.
So, I prune my field grown tridents once per year in August. This includes trunk chops when necessary, as well as side branches when necessary.
Importantly, it also includes root work every year - you need to control the lateral growth of the nebari carefully. To neglect this is to neglect the point of my finished tree. I also use this opportunity every year to thread seedlings into the nebari to both fill gaps, and expedite the lateral spread.
This year, shibui supplied some tremendous seed for this purpose.

I then let them grow wild for the full growing season and feed them profusely, once per week for the full growing season too. I can easily get 3-4m of height in a season. Then rinse and repeat the next year.
Scarring seems to heal fairly quickly on tridents, so this is not a major concern for me - and scars seem to heal especially quickly during the field growing process.

[ben17487]

Thank you WRC, making sense
do you have any posts on here that show some example pictures of your workings?
when you say heavy fertilizing, do you use liquid feed or general purpose pellet stuff?
guess i need some more space and time to allow for experiments, i don't have room to plant in the ground at my house so have to do it elsewhere :/

thanks!!

[shibui]

So in regards to movement and taper, I was going to grow it till the trunk is 1/3 of the final thickness then chop to the lowest branch then grow on, will that not be enough to introduce taper and movement?
How do you suggest I get the best movement from pruning/wiring techniques?

There are many ways to achieve great bonsai. It sounds like your method will work ok. One thing to think about is nebari in relation to the trunk angle. Roots tend to grow horizontal. When you cut the trunk to use 1st branch as new trunk will the initial trunk angle change and what effect will that have on nebari? Look forward to seeing what you grow and how you modify the techniques - many ways to get to the same results.

I do like the ideas wrcmad has posted to add to/ improve nebari while still developing the trunk . I've always done that afterward which leaves scars for a lot longer.

[ben17487]

Wonderful advice by both, thanks very much guys!
I'm enjoying the bonsai journey

[wrcmad]

Thank you WRC, making sense
do you have any posts on here that show some example pictures of your workings?
when you say heavy fertilizing, do you use liquid feed or general purpose pellet stuff?
guess i need some more space and time to allow for experiments, i don't have room to plant in the ground at my house so have to do it elsewhere :/

thanks!!

Apologies, I don't have pics . I don't take pics of trees during field growing - there are too many, and the majority don't make the final cull anyway.
However, I will look at taking some pics next year during digging.

For fertilising field growing trees, I chuck everything I have at them - it is hard to over-do it and harm trees in the ground because excess just drains away.
My usual regime is to keep up osmocote to them, throw a bit of blood & bone at them a few times a year, and weekly dousings of either powerfeed or miracle grow - which ever I have in my hand at the time.

My inspiration comes from articles like this:

Field grown trident, with root grafts and threaded seedlings visible:

sumo1.png

15 years later:

sumo2.png

And how big is it? Around 50cm at the nebari base :

sumo3.png

[treeman]

Thank you WRC, making sense
do you have any posts on here that show some example pictures of your workings?
when you say heavy fertilizing, do you use liquid feed or general purpose pellet stuff?
guess i need some more space and time to allow for experiments, i don't have room to plant in the ground at my house so have to do it elsewhere :/

thanks!!

Apologies, I don't have pics . I don't take pics of trees during field growing - there are too many, and the majority don't make the final cull anyway.
However, I will look at taking some pics next year during digging.

For fertilising field growing trees, I chuck everything I have at them - it is hard to over-do it and harm trees in the ground because excess just drains away.
My usual regime is to keep up osmocote to them, throw a bit of blood & bone at them a few times a year, and weekly dousings of either powerfeed or miracle grow - which ever I have in my hand at the time.

My inspiration comes from articles like this:

Field grown trident, with root grafts and threaded seedlings visible:

sumo1.png

15 years later:

sumo2.png

And how big is it? Around 50cm at the nebari base :

sumo3.png

wrcmad. You are obviously doing good work there and of course everyone has there own particular tastes. But I'm just wondering why you prefer that artificial image of a T maple over say this one:

t.JPG

I find that thing grotesque in the extreme. Champion nebari or not. (but maybe that's just me?) There is no logical balance between the top which is pointed (youthful) and the base which is wide (old) Does not make sense. Are they trying to create an old tree image or a mountain? It is the perfect example of an inferior modern bonsai in my eyes. A work which has abandoned the whole original concept of bonsai . I cannot say enough negative comments about this ''tree'' (again just )

Ben, The most important thing to watch is your taper. You can let everything grow as long as there are not more branches higher up than down low. (which tends to happen if you let it)

[JR_J]

Thank you WRC, making sense
do you have any posts on here that show some example pictures of your workings?
when you say heavy fertilizing, do you use liquid feed or general purpose pellet stuff?
guess i need some more space and time to allow for experiments, i don't have room to plant in the ground at my house so have to do it elsewhere :/

thanks!!

Apologies, I don't have pics . I don't take pics of trees during field growing - there are too many, and the majority don't make the final cull anyway.
However, I will look at taking some pics next year during digging.

For fertilising field growing trees, I chuck everything I have at them - it is hard to over-do it and harm trees in the ground because excess just drains away.
My usual regime is to keep up osmocote to them, throw a bit of blood & bone at them a few times a year, and weekly dousings of either powerfeed or miracle grow - which ever I have in my hand at the time.

My inspiration comes from articles like this:

Field grown trident, with root grafts and threaded seedlings visible:

sumo1.png

15 years later:

sumo2.png

And how big is it? Around 50cm at the nebari base :

sumo3.png

wrcmad. You are obviously doing good work there and of course everyone has there own particular tastes. But I'm just wondering why you prefer that artificial image of a T maple over say this one:

t.JPG

I find that thing grotesque in the extreme. Champion nebari or not. (but maybe that's just me?) There is no logical balance between the top which is pointed (youthful) and the base which is wide (old) Does not make sense. Are they trying to create an old tree image or a mountain? It is the perfect example of an inferior modern bonsai in my eyes. A work which has abandoned the whole original concept of bonsai . I cannot say enough negative comments about this ''tree'' (again just )

Ben, The most important thing to watch is your taper. You can let everything grow as long as there are not more branches higher up than down low. (which tends to happen if you let it)

Ben,

Listen to the man ... he knows what he's talking about - he's been growing trees for maaaany years and is NOT a standard commercial grower

I also prefer his example of tree - the other ones nebary is taking away the endeavoured/natural overall looks of the tree

Shibui is making some good points too!

Cheers,
JRJ

[wrcmad]

wrcmad. You are obviously doing good work there and of course everyone has there own particular tastes. But I'm just wondering why you prefer that artificial image of a T maple over say this one:

t.JPG

I find that thing grotesque in the extreme. Champion nebari or not. (but maybe that's just me?) There is no logical balance between the top which is pointed (youthful) and the base which is wide (old) Does not make sense. Are they trying to create an old tree image or a mountain? It is the perfect example of an inferior modern bonsai in my eyes. A work which has abandoned the whole original concept of bonsai . I cannot say enough negative comments about this ''tree'' (again just )

Ben, The most important thing to watch is your taper. You can let everything grow as long as there are not more branches higher up than down low. (which tends to happen if you let it)

Hi treeman,

Not sure if I prefer one to the other... I can appreciate both for different reasons.
As I stated earlier, I would prefer the example you posted above in a Japanese maple rather than a trident any day of the week - I find the latter a better class of tree, and visually more appealing.
This would be an example - I have seen this tree in person and it is stunning:



While the exaggerated nebari of sumo tridents may seem grotesque to some, I think they fit well with my perception of the artistic element often seem in Japanese bonsai, "caricature", as explained here: viewtopic.php?f=106&t=20659&start=0#p210206

For me though, there are a number of reasons to attempt to grow a tree like this:
I have seen similar trees in the flesh, and whether your opinion is of grotesqueness or beauty, they demand attention, and inspire awe. They are like a train wreck that you cannot walk past and ignore.
They are appreciated for their years of work and development. Because of the time and work involved in development they are not all that prevalent - so their scarcity makes it more desirable for me to want one.
But mostly, it is the challenge, and the enjoyment of trying something a bit different.

[treeman]

A majestic tree. Beauty and elegance epitomized! Obviously much older but the trident could never compare to this tree. To me that's why I could never now go back to persuing that ''Mt Fuji'' trident style.

While the exaggerated nebari of sumo tridents may seem grotesque to some, I think they fit well with my perception of the artistic element often seem in Japanese bonsai, "caricature", as explained here: viewtopic.php?f=106&t=20659&start=0#p210206

I completely understand. However I wonder if after spending much time persuing it you will reach a stage where it no longer satisfies. The design of the palmatum however will always inspire.

I have seen similar trees in the flesh, and whether your opinion is of grotesqueness or beauty, they demand attention, and inspire awe.

This is something I was talking about elsewhere. Many examples of modern bonsai do demand attention. But I feel that the subtlety of bonsai is then removed to be replaced by attention to the spectacle of the tree and it's creator. The ''soul'' of the tree and what it suggests is missing.

They are like a train wreck that you cannot walk past and ignore.

Very well put!