Picea: In trouble, half the branches bare ...

[legoman_iac]

Hey Boics, I'm with you .... until that last branch goes I'm not giving up on it. This is my first bonsai, which I've had for five years. I'm still a little lost as to how it got this bad. Seems to be a combination of factors, which hopefully I, and others, can learn from.

I'll message you directly if your interested in what happens. I wont bother updating here anymore.

- Daniel

[kcpoole]

Hey Boics, I'm with you .... until that last branch goes I'm not giving up on it. This is my first bonsai, which I've had for five years. I'm still a little lost as to how it got this bad. Seems to be a combination of factors, which hopefully I, and others, can learn from.

I'll message you directly if your interested in what happens. I wont bother updating here anymore.

- Daniel

Some people are rather harsh and to them as soon as a tree shows sign of deterioration then chuck it out, and will tell anyone else the same thing.

It is your time and effort to try to do what you can to recover it and if you manage it then kudos to you

Yep this tree might be beyond saving, but as you state above, someone may learn from it so please do keep updating it.
It costs nothing to keep this thread alive and if anyone does not agree with you, then they do not have to read or comment

Ken

[legoman_iac]

Thanks Ken, will do!

[Andrew Legg]

Daniel,

I'm afraid I'm with the naysayers. I think that tree is toast! Having said that, I commend you on your valiant attempt to save it! There are a few things you may have done differently. The first thing is to read a care sheet on the species and fully understand how they must be watered and in what soil they must be grown. The second I think would have been to treat it with a fungicide to try to stem possible root rot issues. The third would have been a bit more misting and a bit less watering. Possibly a bit of weak liquid feed in the foliage feed.

What I must say however is that I like your passion, and don't let this tree pegging put you off. Go out and buy a few bomb-proof trees to bonsai. Elms, olives, Chinese maples, figs etc etc. There are loads of better choices for a beginner, and I suspect you will have a lot of fun learning!

Cheers,

Andrew

[treeman]

Some people are rather harsh

Nothing to do with harsh Ken. Just realistic. This tree is actually not dead and may not even die. However, 90% IS dead therefore to persist with it just takes time away from more productive persuits. Whether this tree lives or dies, I guarantee 1000% that it will be thrown out sooner or later. I'm saying ''make it sooner rather than later''
There's nothing wrong with making every possible effort to save a valuable or rare specimen. I have done it many times but in this case better to get another one and do it properly.
BTW this tree was affected by one of 4 things. Root rot from too much water (unlikely for a spruce but possible); root death from not enough water; root death from too much fertilizer; severe sunburn or any combination of these.

[kcpoole]

Sorry but I don't understand all the conjecture. This tree is a lost cause. Just throw it away.

agree, its dead. Time to toss it out.

These are 2 comments I was referring to.
In a discussion of the tree with someone you know reasonably well in person might OK ( and probably the correct advice), but to give these 2 "one liners" to someone with 49 posts and a bonsai age of 1 year about a tree they have stated have kept alive and growing well for 5 years is the harsh bit.

Many people are put off by the abruptness of comments online, and usually they are given with the best intentions, but due to limited social interaction we all have, they miss there mark somewhat.

I care about Newbies and how they will react to comments and will always be circumspect when posting advice to someone I do not know personally.
I have a guess that the trees on Legomans benches would not be adversely affected by him spending a bit of time to learn more about this particular one, and why it might have turned up it toes. If he succeeds then Kudos to him, but more importantly, if he fails he will more likely get a better tree than be put off.

Ken

[legoman_iac]

Thank you all for your comments!

I didn't mean to start a debate, just didn't want to spam the board not knowing this community well enough.

It's comforting to get your support and feedback, though learning from my mistakes was my main intention. As Ken guessed, I won't bet put off either way, just keen to learn from my mistakes.

So the consensus is root rot, and/or sunburn? More so than the great caterpillar buffet of 2014? I did have a care sheet though was a general one not specific to spruce. I had also been watering and dunking with minimal misting, will be sure to mist more in future.

Thanks again, been a big learning experience.

[Rory]

So the consensus is root rot, and/or sunburn? More so than the great caterpillar buffet of 2014?

That made me laugh.

[63pmp]

For what its worth, I see several problems with the care of this tree.

I agree with others that the soil was staying too moist and this an issue with all plants. But there were other errors made in the plants care and I didn't see where these were picked up.

Picea are acid loving plants, applying dynamic lifter would have pushed soil pH up. Additionally (and the cause of the misconception that you cannot grow cold climate plants in Sydney) is that cold climate plants are ammonium specialists. They grow in regions that have naturally low soil nitrogen and have adapted to being extremely good at extracting ammonium from soils. With these plants you have to significantly reduce the amount of ammonium they get. So feeding your picea with a fertilizer that lifts pH and dumps ammonium in a soil medium that is too boggy would be too much for it.

Paul

[kcpoole]

For what its worth, I see several problems with the care of this tree.

I agree with others that the soil was staying too moist and this an issue with all plants. But there were other errors made in the plants care and I didn't see where these were picked up.

Picea are acid loving plants, applying dynamic lifter would have pushed soil pH up. Additionally (and the cause of the misconception that you cannot grow cold climate plants in Sydney) is that cold climate plants are ammonium specialists. They grow in regions that have naturally low soil nitrogen and have adapted to being extremely good at extracting ammonium from soils. With these plants you have to significantly reduce the amount of ammonium they get. So feeding your picea with a fertilizer that lifts pH and dumps ammonium in a soil medium that is too boggy would be too much for it.

Paul

Thanks Paul
Interesting observation, Do you have a recommended fert for this type of tree?

Ken

[63pmp]

Hi Ken,

I would recommend using a half strength fish emulsion once a week or fortnightly and avoid zeolite in the potting mix.

Picea albies is a strict organic N, and ammonium-N feeder, it rarely if ever takes up nitrate-N. In it's natural environment picea takes up N mostly via small proteins provided by fungal symbiots from organic matter decay. With cold climate plants the maximum ammonium-N uptake occurs at about 15 C. This means that in the wilds where soil temps rarely exceeds 10 C in summer these plants only ever take up a fraction of there maximum input. In Sydney, soil temps rarely fall below 15, so these plants are feeding at a maximum uptake rate all the time.

Additionally, ammonium uptake is poorly regulated in these plants, as there is never enough of it in the wild for the plants to require a regulatory mechanism, so it is very easy to over feed these plants with ammonium. Excess ammonium does cause toxicity in plants, however organic forms of N such as proteins, and nitrate, does not. So a dilute organic fert like fish emulsion would be good. (Zeolite hordes ammonium which can be released at inapproprite times, or gets converted to nitrate, which has an impact on some plants, like J maple).

I grow a few cold climate plants in the central tablelands, such as; Japanese beech, European beech, mugo pine, J. white pine and J. maple. All these plants do better with a low ammonium, low N fertilizer, in very low pH soil (approx 4.5 -5.0)

Regards

Paul

[squizzy]

I agree,

Amazing observations paul

squizz

[legoman_iac]

Hi Paul,

Thank you for the incredibly detailed information. I've read it a few times, and will need to read it a few more times to start to comprehend it all.

So having repotted him in stock standard bunnings mix, should I repot him again in better mix or wait until spring IF he pulls through?

Regarding the fish emulsion, is it worth trying that now? Or is it too late?

Thanks again,
Daniel

[legoman_iac]

Quick update: not much to report. The buds still are plentiful on the one branch though no sign of sprouting growth yet. Had a dream the orher day it was lush ... not the case. Will give it until xmas time i think.

[legoman_iac]

Sad news (late in updating) ... unfortunately my picea didn't make it. After spring 2015 there were no new leaves/needles. I gave him 6 months then he went to
a "better place".

Thanks again all for your help!