Hokkaido Elm Where to Start

[Bonsaiforest]

Hi ... I recently picked up this Hokkaido Elm from Nesci's(actually yesterday) Base of trunk is approx 10cmW - Overall height 48cm Overall width 52cm. As I have never owned one before and don't know much about them Ray and he told me that they are really slow growers and this specimen was in the ground for approximately 10yrs and then in its poly box for another year. I'll be doing my own research before I begin work on this one but As I'm new to the game of working with Hokkaido's, I'd really appreciate some guidance from those of you that have in your collection or have worked on them before. A lot of the branches in the middle and left side of photo don't really have much taper and are quite leggy and taper is what I definitely want to achieve. It has a lot of branches crossing over and not really sure of which to select for removal. As I haven't cleaned it up... It's hard to get a good idea of the current branch placement in the pics. Was thinking short based broom style would look quite effective. All Suggestions on other styles that work well with Hokkaido's would be great. Well here are the pics for discussion. And yes I know it looks pretty messy at the moment.

[Bonsaiforest]

Here are some more pics a little closer up

[shibui]

Did Ray also warn you that these are extremely brittle. Whole branches break off if you look at them too hard so look toward clip and grow rather than wire and bend. Don't be surprised if branches suddenly go brown and die either. It seems to be something they do but there is usually so many branches that after the dead one is pruned you cannot tell that it is missing.

I think that broom style is generally the best way to go with these.
You'll probably need to cut branches hard to get some taper into them but, even though slow to grow, they do grow back pretty quick after pruning.

[deepeetee]

Totally agree with Neil.

The branches are extremely brittle, don't discuss cutting off a branch too loud as it may hop off for you.

These guys are very very slow growers. ive had one in the ground for about 5 years now and not alot has changed. Maybe a little extra length in the branches and a shade bushier.

My advice would be

Come up with a definitive plan eg. draw it

execute said plan.

then move on to another project.

i know this isn't very inspiring... but it is also the truth. You will either get very bored and disillusioned waiting for this species to respond to your actions. Or there wont be much left if you keep 'working' on it.

Good luck, show us what you come up with
Dave

[Bonsaiforest]

Hey Shibui & Deepeetee so what your pretty much saying is that this is definitely a long term project and probably till I'm old and grey. Understand now that clip and grow is the best technique instead of wiring (thinner branches should be ok). With this species (which I definitley know nothing about) what I'm wondering is... If I gradually reduced the top and finer branches will the thicker main branches back bud easily...? Or should I be more careful and take it slowly when trying to reduce the size of the current canopy.

Hey Deepeetee and any one else that has a Hokkaido (finished or not) I'd love to see the pics...So if you can post them here that would be Great...!!!

[shibui]

Understand now that clip and grow is the best technique instead of wiring (thinner branches should be ok)

You can try wiring thinner branches if you think your wiring skills are up to it but even little thin branches are very brittle. Don't be surprised if more end up on the ground than bent on the tree.

If I gradually reduced the top and finer branches will the thicker main branches back bud easily...? Or should I be more careful and take it slowly when trying to reduce the size of the current canopy.

Hokkaido elm buds very easily. You can prune as much off as you like and it will sprout huge numbers of buds from whatever is left. I would reduce the current canopy right back to where you want to get to in one go. The quicker you do the quicker it can start to grow back.

this is definitely a long term project and probably till I'm old and grey

i think you may be pleasantly surprised at how quick it will grow back after pruning. They are slow to grow up but recover fairly quick.

[Bonsaiforest]

Thanks very much Shibui...Today it starting to throw little leaves all over. So would I be right in saying that now would be a good time to cut back to where I want to...? Or would it be best to wait until mid-spring when all leaves are out and have harden off...?

[shibui]

It does not seem to matter with elms. You can prune whenever it suits.

[Bonsaiforest]

Thanks... Will start on the weekend...Hope I don't have to much die back...And I'll post pics after I've trimmed and new growth is on the way

[kcpoole]

Wired one of mine last night ( it is an airlayer from one I purchased from Ray) and kept Breaking all the small tertiary branching
Using 1mm wire and just brushing past others the break off! frustration at Times.

Will be repotting the rest of all my elms today to finish them for the year.

Ken

[Reece]

Do seiju elms have all of the same problems?

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[kcpoole]

Do seiju elms have all of the same problems?

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No idea, but good question
Ken

[Jarad]

Wired one of mine last night ( it is an airlayer from one I purchased from Ray) and kept Breaking all the small tertiary branching
Using 1mm wire and just brushing past others the break off! frustration at Times.

I just look at the branches on mine and they break off.

The price we pay for garnly bark...

[shibui]

Hokkaido elms are the only ones I have found that are really brittle like this. Seiju, corky bark and the other varieties of Chinese elm are quite easy to wire and move branches.

Here's a couple of photos for you Bonsai forest:
First is my stock plant. I purchased this one around 30 years ago. It has never really been trained as a bonsai just cut back occasionally and cuttings taken off it.

hokkaido large 2.JPG

It is about 70 cm tall at the moment and growing in a 30 cm orchid pot. It does not seem inclined to grow much taller than this. The trunk and branches are covered with moss at the moment making them look thicker than they are.

This is a cutting from the plant above. Probably around 5 years old but no serious styling. It just looked ok so I put it into a bonsai pot. Height is around 15cm tall.

hokkaido bonsai small1.JPG

[Bonsaiforest]

Shibui...Thanks for the inspiration pics...All I can say is Wow ... Now that's definitely what I'd like to have some day. It's huge and you have so many options for the direction that you want to take with this tree. Even though I consider myself a novice I can see so much potential. I ever get the chance to come down from Sydney I'd love to see your stock plants that you have for sale as well your collection for inspiration (only if that's permitted) The cutting that you have also looks great and I'm sure that you'll develop it into something special in years to come. On the topic of cuttings - So if I was to take branches off my Hokkaido to use as cuttings what would be the best technique...? I was hoping to remove one of my branches that's about 3/4 inch thick. Or do you think it would be a safer bet for me to air layer...? As Hokkaido's are such slow growers would that mean that producing roots on an air layer would also be a timely patient wait...?