How long for a Black Pine layer???

Discussions about propagating from cuttings, seeds, air layers etc. Going on a dig (Yamadori) or thinking of importing? Discuss how, when and where here.
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Ray M
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Re: How long for a Black Pine layer???

Post by Ray M »

dansai wrote:Hi Ray

As mentioned before I read somewhere that a layer on a node gives the best results for pines by which I assume they meant where a whorl of branches are. I read it somewhere on Ab, but after a lot of searching still cannot find the thread.

I suppose I have a few options. There is a straight section of trunk and then a whorl of branches, all of which have good curves in them as shown in pic 3 and 4. There are 2 weak branches, 5 reasonably strong ones and the central ones which has another whorl of branches towards the top.

So the options as I see them now.

1. Air layer the central trunk off above the whorl. Then next season, or at the same time, remove the 2 weak branches and air layer on the node to create a 5 tree clump.
2. As above, but separate the trunks after roots have formed. (Assuming all trunks have formed roots!!)
3. Air layer each branch, bar the weak ones, above the node to obtain 6 trees. Or if this is too much in one hit, maybe only do 3 and remove the rest.

All branches on the top section have strong buds ready for growth come spring.
Hi Dan,
I would go with your point 3. Each of the branches have strong growth which is ideal for doing the layers. You could take off the two weak branches. Make sure you leave sufficient stub on the trunk where you remove these two branches.

I have quoted what I said earlier concerning when to do the layers. I'm sure doing them at this time will contribute to the layers being successful.
You will notice I did the layer in November. If you look at the first photo you will see the candles have been cut back. These are the strong candles you get in Spring. I cut these back by half. I then waited a couple of weeks and then did the layers.

I removed the layers in March, the next year. You will see from the photos that the second candle growth was looking quite healthy. When I saw the candles growing so well I thought the roots should be doing well. It was after I checked the roots and saw how many roots there was I decided to remove the layers.
I intend to do some more layers myself this year. There are still a number of branches on the stock tree that would be candidates for layering. I guess we will be able to share information as we would being doing the layers about the same time.

Regards Ray
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Re: How long for a Black Pine layer???

Post by dansai »

Thanks Ray.

So should I leave all the older needles on for now?

Cheers Dan
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Re: How long for a Black Pine layer???

Post by Ray M »

dansai wrote:Thanks Ray.

So should I leave all the older needles on for now?

Cheers Dan
Hi Dan,
I would leave it alone until it's time to cut back the candles. If there are any dead needles you could remove those. Do a check in the thick foliage and make sure there are no spider nests etc.

Regards Ray
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Re: How long for a Black Pine layer???

Post by dansai »

Hi Ray,

Is it about time to look at doing these layers. The tree in question has been slow to extend candles but they are getting some movement now. I can post pics by the weekend if that helps.
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Re: How long for a Black Pine layer???

Post by Ray M »

dansai wrote:Hi Ray,

Is it about time to look at doing these layers. The tree in question has been slow to extend candles but they are getting some movement now. I can post pics by the weekend if that helps.
Hi Dan,
Yes mate, please post some photos. I did three black pine layers at the School of Bonsai exhibition. I am also doing some more trees this coming weekend. I have been invited to do a demonstration on some unusual trees. I am looking forward to see the trees and the potential of layering them.

Regards Ray
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Re: How long for a Black Pine layer???

Post by bonsaiLov »

healthy pine layers, inspirational
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Re: How long for a Black Pine layer???

Post by Ray M »

bonsaiLov wrote:healthy pine layers, inspirational
Hi bonsaiLov,
The trees have put on even more growth since the last photos. I took the trees up to Ray Nesci's the other day for him to have a look at, as he wants me to do some Black Pines for him. It was very interesting watching Ray checking the pines. The first thing he did was to hold the trunk and pot and see how firmly the trees were established. They didn't move, so that was a good sign that the roots have taken very well. I feel quite confident now that the trees are at a stage where they could start to have some shaping done to them.
IMG_7403 -2.jpg
IMG_7405 -2.jpg
IMG_7406 -2.jpg
IMG_7407 -2.jpg
Regards Ray
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Re: How long for a Black Pine layer???

Post by dansai »

Hi Ray

Current pictures of the pine in question are below. If you want more pictures or different angles let me know. The last picture shows the area I was looking to layer.
JBP 2 AL-1.jpg
JBP 2 AL-2.jpg
JBP 2 AL-3.jpg
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Re: How long for a Black Pine layer???

Post by dansai »

Well I finally got to do my layers. I followed RayM's technique which is outlined in his book on layering Trident Maples. He has found it has worked well with other hard to layer species.

Unfortunately I only had a small amount of sphagnum moss left and my local nursery doesn't carry it and the big green shed is too far away. :( So on 2 of the layers I have used coarse cocopeat that I removed the larger chunks from. The larger one has sphagnum moss though. :fc:

All set up ready to work.
JBP Layer-2.jpg
The site for layering
JBP Layer-1.jpg
The bark removed. Unfortunately I cut straight through one branch. :(
JBP Layer-3.jpg
The layers complete. :fc:
JBP Layer-4.jpg
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Ray M
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Re: How long for a Black Pine layer???

Post by Ray M »

Hi everyone,
I had a look at the layers on the Black Pine I used to demonstrate at the School of Bonsai exhibition.

The layers were applied, 19-20 October 2013. I checked them yesterday, 7 February 2014. I'm happy with the results. I'll take the layers off toward the end of this month.
IMG_8018 -2.jpg
IMG_8024 -2.jpg
IMG_8026 -2.jpg
Regards Ray
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How long for a Black Pine layer???

Post by Elmar »

dansai wrote:Well I finally got to do my layers. I followed RayM's technique which is outlined in his book on layering Trident Maples....
I've seen reference to this book from Ray twice now. Where can I get a hold of it?


Cheers
EZ
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Last edited by Elmar on February 8th, 2014, 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Elmar
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Ray M
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Re: How long for a Black Pine layer???

Post by Ray M »

CoGRedeMptioN wrote:
dansai wrote:Well I finally got to do my layers. I followed RayM's technique which is outlined in his book on layering Trident Maples....
I've seen reference to this book from Ray twice now. Where can I get a hold of it?


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EZ
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Hi EZ,
I will PM you with the information you need.

Regards Ray
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Re: How long for a Black Pine layer???

Post by Elmar »

Ray M wrote: Hi EZ,
I will PM you with the information you need.

Regards Ray
Thanx Ray, appreciate it.

Everywhere we go I now find myself checking out trees ... Problem is they're outside shops on the foot path, along the roads ... Lol, not sure if I can take any cuttings ... Ooh!


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Ray M
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Re: How long for a Black Pine layer???

Post by Ray M »

Hi all,
A correction to my post February 8th. I doubled up on one of the photos. The following is the correct photo for the third layer.
IMG_8020 -2.jpg
Regards Ray
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Ray M
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Re: How long for a Black Pine layer???

Post by Ray M »

Hi all,
Here are some update photos of the three layers I did in October 2013.

In the first 3 photos you will see the roots are very thick. I left the layers on for 5 months. They should have been taken off at least a month earlier.

I even spared no expense and purchased some new colanders for them. :lol: :whistle:
IMG_8145 -2.jpg
IMG_8146 -2.jpg
IMG_8147 -2.jpg
IMG_8162 -2.jpg
IMG_8163 -2.jpg
IMG_8164 -2.jpg
Regards Ray
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