Bonsai and Water Costs

[craigw60]

My last water bill was just over $400 and I have a whole nursery to water plus the bonsai, I don't water the garden at all just the odd bucket for shrubs which are not established yet.
I am happy to see our water resource being used for food production although most of it is exported which equates to exporting water. I think the issue of water wasted in the channel system is gradually being dealt with but its a massive undertaking.
My biggest gripe is the vast quantities of water required to cool our cities big shopping centres so we can go and buy cheap imported junk(ultimately landfill) without shedding a drop of sweat.
Craigw

[Bretts]

Thanks for the added Info Scott. It seems our local business is charged a flat rate of $1.70 per Kl. Considering the irrigating farmers only make 30c per Kl it seems less of a free market as they must be paying less than that. I guess we do need to consider as you have said that the irrigators water is straight from the river I guess but they use a hell of a lot and that water could be dammed if so much was not taken out for the 30c a kilo litre profit.
I am not suggesting we should stop farming, some farms don't irrigate at all. But it just seems to me that we could find more than a 1% saving by moving at least some of the farming GDP into manufacturing or oar processing ?
I know this thread may get close to being political and I hope we can keep away from that side of it but if possible I really would like to get some more understanding of this subject.

[Bretts]

Do you know how much water you use Craig and what the council rate is?

[craigw60]

Brett, 183 kilolitres at varying costs, 41.36 kl at 1.7756, 41.36 kl at 2.0832 and 100.280 kl at 3.0778
go figure ?
Craigw

[Scott Roxburgh]

...But it just seems to me that we could find more than a 1% saving by moving at least some of the farming GDP into manufacturing or ore processing...

That is the point, if it is more lucrative for a farmer to do that (taking into account transaction costs) then they will, else they will continue to make the profit that they are currently.

One of our investment funds used to grow around 2,000ha of cotton. The price dropped, and the cost of water (licences and diesel) increased so we now grow 2,000ha of the higher value crop of Almonds, there has been a 7 year lead time to get to a profitable point but it is all cashflow from here. Most farmers could not cashflow 6 years of capital expenditure and operating costs to get the pay off. that is a large transaction cost to change industries.

The other option is legislative change, to transition farmers out of business and into a another industry. IMO larger Govt intervention is always a bad thing. Govt. can waste much quicker than a farmer looking after his own interests.

Others may disagree.

[lackhand]

IMO larger Govt intervention is always a bad thing. Govt. can waste much quicker than a farmer looking after his own interests.

Others may disagree.

But not me. I agree wholeheartedly.

Transitions are definitely hard for some - the free market economy is not always kind. But it is efficient in its use of resources, and it definitely leads to better outcomes than government interventions almost all the time.

[g.raft]

Bretts you have opened a can of worms! There are far to many factors and variables involved to come up with a complete answer to your question and everyone will have a differnt opinion on the subject....my is this: next time you go and by your $1 a litre milk have a think about the poor old dairy farmer stuggling to make ends meet, getting paid bugger all for his efforts! That price for milk is ridiculous! Big companies offering you an incentive at the cost of the farmer!

[Bretts]

Thanks Craig, Not exactly the figures I was looking for but maybe I can work it out from there.
I guess that is a quartly bill. So over say 90 days you are using about 2 kilo litres a day. That is twice what I am using for my house with three kids.
I guess my usage is about half of the usage for my trees. I am watering once a day mostly at the moment so in Summer it can be twice or even three times this.
My bill has an average usage, being on the third out of 4 billing cycles I have an average of 2 kilo litres a day over the 270 days. Last year it was about 1.5 kilo litres average. It will take some time, a full season even, taking notes to get a real idea of how much water I am going through for the trees.

Hey Josh, I already installed a 5000 l tank, not massive but not exactly small either. I did that just because I wanted some rain water and back at 2007 prices i thought it ws funny as full it held about $5 worth of water but at what I am charged today it holds about $12 worth of water Pity my hose pressure is so good and the pump from that seems Sooooo slow. I would use that to water the lawn if it filled up this year? Most went into the pool.

[Bretts]

LOL Graft I often compare milk or bottled water to the cost of fuel

[shibui]

we did some calculations this year and found the automatic watering system on the nursery uses 3000 litres of water each day (night) We were also putting nearly 6000 litres on the rest of the garden each day. Fortunately the bore provides the water though it still costs - about $15,000 initial setup (bore, pipes, storage tank) and ongoing electricity costs to run the pumps to provide the water we use and there will eventually be maintenance and replacement costs if we stay long enough.....

Your urban water, Bretts, is purchased on the open market the same as all other irrigation water but unlike farm water it is cleaned, filtered, treated to kill pests and diseases then transported to you home and supplied under pressure. All these add quite considerable costs as well as administration and staff to see that it all works reliably ALL THE TIME! (which is what urban users demand) and which is why your water costs more than irrigation water.
Prices went up considerably a few years ago when water authorities realised that the infrastructure they owned - treatment plants, hundreds of km of pipes, etc were starting to reach the end of their useful lives (more frequent breakdowns, burst pipes, etc). They realised there will be considerable cost in coming years to replace old pipes, etc and have raised prices to factor in not only supply and maintenance but also replacement costs.

In my opinion we have not been paying the real full price for water, electricity and waste for many years.

[daiviet_nguyen]

Down here in Victoria, the state government is the process of building a desalination plant.

Lately people have been saying that we do not actually need it: they forgot that during the drought a short few years prior, "desalination plant" was mentioned several times a week.

-- If we were unfortunate and the drought kicks in again, I would feel very very guilty using drinking water on plants, especially if it was from the desalination plant.

Let's pray for rain fall.

[kcpoole]

Hi Daviet it would be much cheaper to filter Effluent properly and use that than building a Desal plant, but hey I reckon the average Aussie would freak at Drinking Waster water

As for water usage, the average garden tap will deliver about 50 - 60 litres of water a minute ( more with better water pressure), so watering for 10 minutes can use 600 L without thinking about it.
In summer, my taps are on for about 20 mins per day to water my trees so yeah using 1Kl a day is not unreasonable assumption.

Dunno about whether it is more economical to stop all farming and convert all to mining, but I know we cannot compete in manufacturing with Cheaper labour countries

Interesting posts above and great discussion brett

Ken

[cre8ivbonsai]

Down here in Victoria, the state government is the process of building a desalination plant.

Lately people have been saying that we do not actually need it: they forgot that during the drought a short few years prior, "desalination plant" was mentioned several times a week.

-- If we were unfortunate and the drought kicks in again, I would feel very very guilty using drinking water on plants, especially if it was from the desalination plant.

Let's pray for rain fall.

Sorry mate, but the Wonthaggi desal plant was an absolute debacle. a mandatory or heavily subsidised tank installation program would have been more sensible use of OUR money. But the Bracks government wanted a big, new, shinny, look what we've done, white elephant (not to mention jobs for the boys... ).

"The capital cost for the project was initially estimated to be $2.9 billion in the initial feasibility study, this was later revised to $3.1 billion and then to $3.5 billion. After the winning bidder was announced it was revised to $4 billion."
"On completion the plant was immediately placed into standby mode as the reservoirs in Melbourne were over 80% full. However a $1.8 million per day fee is payable to the construction consortium. This minimum fee is payable for a total of 27 years after completion, so even if no water is required the total payment is between $18 and $19 billion."

Completed last year it now sits idle producing nothing but taxpayer debt. While in 2011 water users who were charged for desal water from a plant that wasn't even built yet. Now we're getting credit on our bills but still paying inflating price rises on water that none of which comes from the plant

This was nothing to do with good policy, more about political scrambling to appease popular opinion on how we live in relative luxury in the sometimes very harsh Australian environment. Now the weather has changed, and so has popular opinion. Only time will tell if this was a necessary investment, let alone a good one (guess we'll see in 30 years ). I do concede the following:

"In the absence of new dams, it is almost inevitable Victoria's desalination plant will be needed at some point, particularly with Melbourne's population swelling by around 80,000 people a year. At this point, instead of seeing it as a white elephant, it might be viewed as a necessary insurance policy - albeit a fairly expensive one."

If I didn't rent, I'd definitely be finding a way to capture the free water flowing of my roof. As it is I'm left trying to capture and reuse my bonsai "paid for" water to get better value for money. Mains water shouldn't be free, and needs to be used efficiently (like for bonsai ) and all the built in costs will always rise, but the system also needs to be managed and planned for efficiently.

Ok soapbox vacated back to Bonsai

[shibui]

Hi Daviet it would be much cheaper to filter Effluent properly and use that than building a Desal plant, but hey I reckon the average Aussie would freak at Drinking Waster water

The really funny thing about that KC is that nearly all of us have been drinking recycled waste water for years. Towns upstream discharge treated (or for a long time, untreated) wastewater into the rivers and streams. Downstream towns take water from the river and use it for drinking water with minimal treatment. In many areas, old and poorly maintained septic tanks discharge poorly treated or raw sewage onto the land which then gets washed into the streams - again, downstream users get to drink the result - very good on the garden though

[Olivecrazy]

My water bill is around $120-130 i water the lawn an my trees every other day (depends on weather) what would the bonsai use ?? ? i wouldnt no but when a bonsai pot can cost over $100 each or a tool i see water cost as a minor cost for this hobby