Japanese Black Pines - Growing vs Developing

[jimbo_rees]

I've read most of the threads about JBP candle pruning and development, but one thing I'm confused about is how to fatten up the trunk and get the basic frame for the pine.

Does the trunk just naturally fatten up well and develop some taper by using the candle pruning techniques? It seems like the techniques are intended for trees that already have a basic trunk and branch structure in place, but I'm not really sure about this.

I've got about 15 starter plants in the ground and in large growing containers and I feel like I should just let them grow for a few years to try to build the trunk. But what I'm concerned about is that the lower branches may become too long and leggy if I just let them go. Alternatively, if I decandle the bottom branches to start their ramification, I'm concerned that I'll be reducing the energy that flows to them and risk losing the branches altogether.

What do people do with their JBPs right from the start?
1) Do you let them grow out for a few years first until the trunk is almost at its desired thickness?
2) Or do you start training your intended branches immediately?
3) Do you largely follow the decandling techniques to develop branches right from the start and just keep a couple of sacrificial branches.
4) If you keep sacrificial branches do you thin them out a bit so that they don't 'steal' energy from the intended tree?

Any comments would be appreciated.

[kcpoole]

I have i in the ground developing that I want to keep as shohin size.
The trunk is now about 3 inches in diameter.

JBP do not backbud very well (or at all), so you have to build the structure of the tree and branches at the same time. With Deciduous trees you grow the trunk, then cut back all branches and regrow them from scratch. With Pines that does not work.

We use sacrifice branches to grow the bulk of the tree, while selectively pruning the wanted branches, to keep the foliage compact and close to the trunk. Once the Sacrifice branches have done their job to thicken the trunk, they are removed and the scars allowed to heal.

I lift mine from the ground every 2 years and root prune.

Ken

[kcpoole]

re the lats point you made
Sacrifice branches are in tended to Steal the energy. they are allowed to grow wild and put on as much growth as that will make the trunk below the branch put on girth.
They thus thicken the trunk and slow down the parts of the tree we want to keep as the future branches.

Ken

[jimbo_rees]

Thanks Ken. What I'm anxious about is that my intended branches just don't get enough vigour and they die back if I allow sacrificial branches to steal too much energy. Below is an example of what I've got and what I'm thinking.

With this one, should I just let it all grow and then do a major cutback? Cut it back at the top section that I've marked now (at the start of the next growing season)? If I leave it to grow, I'm anxious the bottom branches could die back. I'm leaning towards cutting it back.

I've actually got a number of them going, so I'll probably experiment both ways. Just thought some expert advice may save me a few years of growing.

[Dario]

As Ken said...
and grow your sacrifice branches to the side and then up so they don't shade out the branches you are trying to maintain for the future. You may need to also remove the leaves from the bottom of the sacrifice branches to stop shading out the tree too. If the sacrifice branches are starting to take over too much energy from the tree to the point that the future branches are loosing too much vigor, then thin them out at the top and consider candle pruning them to allow the rest to catch up...the sacrifices will shoot buds and take off again and in the mean time the energy from them will be diverted back to the final branches you are training.
It is a bit of an energy balancing act.
Also grow the main leader of the tree as a sacrifice too and let it get really tall...just thin out all pine leaves along its length and leave the growth at the top but only train one candle to keep growing up and up.
As development progresses you will still need to do multiple trunk chops and regrow a new leader for the next section of the tree as per deciduous trees. But just be aware that pines have a tendency to have the same trunk calipar, so for every new section of the trunk line that you are building you will require lots of low buds to choose from to form additional sacrifice branches to create taper and smooth out the transition from section to section, as well as buds to form the required branches for that section and also a new leader...so if you don't have the buds that you need, let that new section grow strong and then cut back. For this you need to leave all the leaves/needles in place, and be aware that needles fall off after two to three years so you must chop back within this time frame to get strong back budding (but let it grow for at least one year first to build energy).
Same goes for the young stock you are starting with to grow your future tree from...if your seedling does not have buds down low for sacrifice branches a first branch and a new leader, you may need to feed it extra well and then cut it back to attain the desired low buds before you can start to build your tree. This will delay the growing time in the short term but it will result in a much better final product in the long term.
There are quite a few different ways to approach growing pines and this is just one of them...best to start with good stock though.
There are also lots of articles to read on this subject. I am not trying to over complicate things for you, the above is some of the pine growing principles that I have managed to gather and process. I am still a beginner so I cannot show you developed pine trees that I have grown as it takes many years.
I really enjoy the process of deciding what to do and the reasoning behind any action taken when growing my pines.
Good luck and be sure to have fun!
Cheers, Dario.
EDIT posted this before I read your last post so sorry I didn't help with your question