first bonsai

Forum for discussion of Pines, Junipers, Cedar etc as bonsai.
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ribbit23
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first bonsai

Post by ribbit23 »

Hi.

This is my first attempt at creating a bonsai. I picked up this Juniper noting the thickish trunk for its size, and lots of low branches.
Hopefully i havnt butchered it too badly :whistle: and done it somewhat correctly :fc:
Im a bit stuck now on what to do with it, i was going to put it into a cascade, but i cant decide which branch to use or both, and i was contemplating curving one of the branches up over the top or similar? what do you think?
(branch near base was going to be a sacrifice branch to thicken the trunk a little more)

Any comments or tips welcome. :D
And please excuse the crappy photography.
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Re: first bonsai

Post by xtolord »

:imo:
You are starting it the wrong way imo.

I would suggest to start working on the nebari and thickening the taper and branches.
You can wire it during the process, but let it grow freely for some time to thicken up.

I would NOT place it into a bonsai pot right away.
Place it in a training pot or the ground for some training.

It has a nice flow on the trunks, but no hint of a nebari worth it.
The trunk/taper seems too thin in the pictures.
Let it thicken maybe twice or thrice its current size.
Let it grow freely, no pruning for now. You could wire it to guide the growth.
Dont worry about extra sacrificial branches, you could jinn it afterwards.

:imo:
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Re: first bonsai

Post by Craig »

:gday: Ribbit, you sure have taken ALOT of foliage off, not to worry should be A ok but don't remove any more yet . You should leave it alone now to recover, read up on some Juniper topics so you get an idea of how they like to be looked after(water , fertilisers etc).

Did you repot it and or rootprune it?

Don't worry about how to style the Juniper as "Bonsai" yet , let it grow a while until you get the "feel" for what you are doing. take care :wave:
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Re: first bonsai

Post by ribbit23 »

Xtolord
I don’t realy think it had much of a root mass to turn into nabari so ill give it a shot when its recovered a bit from the hacking yeh? Ive just left it in the nursery type pot I got it in for now do you suggest something bigger? Thanks for the advice

Craig,
Cool should be ok then, ill have a looksee to see what it needs then. :D I just put it strait back in its pot no root pruning or anything, figured it would be a bit stressful for it... Thanks :tu:
Last edited by ribbit23 on July 25th, 2012, 12:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: first bonsai

Post by bodhidharma »

Ahh..a classic case of wanting a Bonsai instantly grasshopper :whistle: I have made this mistake a lot and have learnt to study the tree first, watch it grow, learn its habits and go slowly. Probably needs to go into a larger grow pot for a while at your next repot and buy another one to look at and play with so you leave this one to recover. Also, if you use the words..attacking the tree..the tree wont like or reward you. Remember, you need to establish a bond with the tree. The tree is your friend.
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Re: first bonsai

Post by xtolord »

Hear the words of wisdom of bodhidharma :)

Im still a beginner at this, specially where evergreen are concerned, so if I write any garbage information, may the wiser please correct me :)

I suppose that you already know about the different types of roots that occurs underground [ feeder roots, lateral roots, tap root ]
If not its better to have a :reading: on those. They are kind of the basics before you can do any real root pruning that wont have any negative impact on your tree.
I've kill 2 trees because I root pruned some roots or sections that I should have left alone [ imo ] on a type of tree that was not "fit" for the root pruning regime I tried.

You should also understand how your tree behaves in relation with their root system...
For instance rosemary root pruning - never take off more than 1/3 of the root ball, otherwise you would very well kill the tree.

Deciduous tree usually have a more complex lifeline between the roots and the branches, meaning you could well remove any root that's annoying you in a deciduous tree if there is enough roots left to take care of the nutrients and water needs of the tree. You might need to reduce some leaves depending on the amount of root pruned.

In your case, this is an evergreen plant, those have a different type of lifeline relationship between the roots and the branches. You know those great looking juniper bonsai with lots of deadwood and a single line of greyish red bark twisting around the deadwood to reach some foilage at the top? Well this greyish red bark is your lifeline.
Image

This means that the branches and foilage at one point, is dependent on some roots at the other end of that lifeline.
You let that branch die = the roots at the end of the lifeline will die too
You cut those roots prematurely = the foilage at the end of those roots will die in turn.
I might be oversimplifying things, but that's the gist of it.

Now back to your juniper:
What you did is a massive hair cut to the foilage. Meaning that some roots will be naturally eliminated over the course of time as the tree grows and establish/reinforce the lifelines. So for now leave the rootball as it is and place in a bigger pot to allow the roots to grow and the dead roots to rot away... it wont harm the tree.
When you will repot in 12 or 24 months from now, you will be able to identify the two type by their colors.
Dead roots = dark black.
Live roots = greyish red, to pale cream to white.
Discard / remove the dead roots and start working on the nebari.

Untangle the roots and spread them in a radial disposition around the trunk.
Then let them grow to thicken up - still in a training pot.

I've got two examples of what I did on a casuarina and a ficus retusa.
http://maubonsai.blogspot.com/2012/07/b ... ebari.html
http://maubonsai.blogspot.com/2012/07/f ... ebari.html

I've got a juniper but its still in training [ roots and branch movement mainly ] : Flickr Juniper Bedfordiana in training
You should probably need as big or even bigger if you can find one. Dont look at the pot for the ficus, they could even grow in a crack in the wall, your juniper should be in a much bigger pot.

Im kind of wondering if you are using a "YouTube" video as teacher/mentor?
The steps you took sure looks like one of those quick and easy bonsai instructions on some youtube vids.
If you are using a youtube video, could you post the link so that we have an eye on how they instruct you to work on your tree?
There are some videos that are good, others that are ok and a third category that should be avoided until you know what to take and what to discard.

Well that's about it... Unless someone have a more detailed juniper nebari training progression, I would be interested in it too :)



Dont rush it... Like Dodhidharma said get yourself two or more trees. Use a correct method on one tree and train on the others. You WILL make blunders - I did and still do...
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Re: first bonsai

Post by xtolord »

have a look at this article from Bonsai4me : http://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATJuni ... Series.htm
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Re: first bonsai

Post by ribbit23 »

Wow thanks for all the information!! Its realy helpful.

bodhidharma, I know it wont instantly turn into one but i still hoped :oops: Ill make it my friend ive named it now and everything :lol: Thanks for the info about studying my tree ill see what i can learn :tu2:

I didnt know about the different roots so thanks for the tip, Ill read up on them before i try pruning them. I realy didnt know roots were so complicated.... Im sorry bout your trees
I never realised about the deadwood relationship with the tree either, the simplifying helped too thanks :whistle:
I realy want to join a club, but the only one in wa i can find meets on monday night when im working so im afraid for now i just have to rely on you guys and books. :roll:
Ill keep an eye out for the different roots and which are dead and alive when i rootprune it it a couple of years thanks.
Thanks for the instructions on how to create a better nebari, i found this while looking into it from the previous coments, would it be ok and work with my juni still?? http://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATNebari.html
Ok cool im pretty sure ive got a pot about that size lying around somewhere... :)
iIhad a look through a few youtube videos but a lot of them wernt very easy to figure out what they were doing, and seemed to miss steps from what ive read hear so i gave up on them.

Thanks for all the tips and link, theyve been a great help :tu:
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Re: first bonsai

Post by xtolord »

ribbit23 wrote:i found this while looking into it from the previous coments, would it be ok and work with my juni still?? http://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATNebari.html
Frankly I dont know how it will react on a juniper, I've seen this technique used on deciduous trees.
You might try to contact the site directly and ask, or create a post with a better subject title to encourage people to participate.
Something like "How to improve Nebari on a Juniper" ;)
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Re: first bonsai

Post by xtolord »

I've send Harry from Bonsai4me an email on nebari for junipers

Here's his answer:

Code: Select all

Hi Xavier,
You can practise some nebari techniques on juniper but it is not necessary or expected as surface roots on junipers naturally die as their life-lines and attached branches are removed or die during development or styling; in otherwords, it is not possible to create AND maintain a deciduous-tree style nebari on a Juniper ;-)
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Re: first bonsai

Post by Craig »

xtolord wrote:I've send Harry from Bonsai4me an email on nebari for junipers

Here's his answer:

Code: Select all

Hi Xavier,
You can practise some nebari techniques on juniper but it is not necessary or expected as surface roots on junipers naturally die as their life-lines and attached branches are removed or die during development or styling; in otherwords, it is not possible to create AND maintain a deciduous-tree style nebari on a Juniper ;-)

Why would you do that ? All the information is here on this site, :lost: :palm:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9083 - Juniper

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=12263&start=0&hilit=juniper+nebari-

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9062&p=124366&hilit ... i#p124366- Ulmus


viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1307&start=0 - How to grow stock

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1451&hilit=juniper+nebari#p13743 - how to produce flat nebari

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=8889&p=97439&hilit= ... ari#p97439 - the importance of developing good nebari

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5722&p=66384&hilit= ... ari#p66384 - nebari help

:tu:
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Re: first bonsai

Post by ribbit23 »

This is all pretty confusing with so much infomation... :lost: ill just keep reading everything i can find about nebari before I try anything...
Thanks for asking for me xtolord, but if the roots of junipers die as their life lines and connecting branches die, how can you make a nabari... would you just have to keep spreading it radialy whenever its repotted?

Ive been looking on the site, its got a LOT of amazing infomation, but how do you find anything when your actuly looking for something specific?? i keep getting things that dont help me so much when im looking.

thanks for all the links craig. :)
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