What is a Yamadori?

[MattA]

Hey All,

Yamadori, a word we all hear ALL the time but what really is a Yamadori?

The word in Japanese literally means "taken from the mountain."

https://www.ausbonsai.com.au/wiki/index. ... e=Yamadori

As with so many things the literal translation gives a very wide scope for interpretation. My own are as follows...

True yamadori, those that come from a place where only time & nature have affected there growth. When collected & grown as a bonsai it looks as it did in the wild.

Wild collected stock, stumps to fairly advanced material that is then worked on heavily to achieve a shape different to what was collected. This includes all the weed species in bushland (privet etc) along with native material affected by man during its life for whatever reason.

Garden trees, I never looked at these as yamadori or even urbanadori due to my definition of a true yamadori. In recent years i have started to wonder if that is right....

I would really like to have everyone share their own definitions rather than turn this into an ethics debate. I am more than willing to contribute to that side of the discussion on another thread if someone would like to start it.

Look forward to hearing from you.

Regards
Matt

[Joel]

I suspect many people think "yamadori" is synonymous with "collect material".

Joel

[alpineart]

Hi MattA , my interpretation of Yamadori is any collected naturally growing material , be it garden grown or wild material not purpose grown for Bonsai . Urban Yamadori refers to garden growing collected material or any material collected from an urban area . My big lilly pilly is an urban Yamadori but it did start its life 15 years ago as a bonsai trainer .It was planted out left to grow wild therefore it is a Urban Yamadori .I think i referred to it in the topic as a landscape tree to trainer but it is a Urban Yamadori because no training took place after it was placed in the ground .

Cheers Alpineart

[Greth]

Not sure that it should be restricted to naturally styled trees. Everything is going to change once collected, hopefully in the direction the artist intended! And the landscape we have to collect from is increasingly urbanised, just a slightly different hunting ground to an idealised Japanese mountain. The finds can be just as good.

[kcpoole]

I believe there is a specific Japanese term for trees collected from man made environments ( what we call Urbanadori ), but do not know what it is.
Yamadori specifically means tree collected from the wild and to call a garden tree yamadori is incorrect IMHO.

Most people know what we mean when using either term and none here are really that Put out by the incorrect use I think anyway. Like most languages they evolve and specific meanings get diluted ofer time any I reckon

Ken

[GavinG]

I'm with Matt. As he points out, "yama" means mountain - if we're going to use the term "yamadori', we should respect it's meaning.

I'd prefer to use English phrases, if there's one that's clear. "A find" is nice. I'm perfectly happy to call stuff I dig in the city "garden stock" - it doesn't sound as exciting as an exotic Japanese word, but it's what it is. And "wild stock" for stuff I dig Out There. If I ever get some seriously wind-and-water-affected stumps,(Hi Jan, how are the Lepto obavatum going?) I might call them "yamadori", or maybe just "those rotten cranky old b#$%^~~ds".

But the word doesn't matter a lot, it's what you do with the treasure that counts. I'm not keen on dressing up a rough stump with pom-poms, whatever you call them.

Gavin

[Handy Mick]

I like and am with Ken in his simple explanation.

Mick

[MattA]

Hey all,

Thanks to everyone for replying, since posting I have been asking myself the question in regards to my own trees & passion for the find, dig, survival of anything & everything from suburbia to the mountains, yes we have them too

Not sure that it should be restricted to naturally styled trees. Everything is going to change once collected, hopefully in the direction the artist intended!

Greth you raise two points that have given me most thought. Your second first.
Why does a tree have to change once collected? The original intent was to find a tree that apealed, remove it to a pot, then nurture and care for it, as is... Water Feed Repot, no wire or major rearranging to create a tree. It is natural for a tree to evolve over time sometimes for the better, sometimes not. Your first point is close to where I have ended up after a word from a wise man. Can an urban find be more than a chop & carve or major bends & reshaping to suit the artist?

Over the years I have had the honour & opportunity to dig some really nice trees, from chop rebuilds to true yamadori, mountain style At present I have 2 trees that I would consider true yamadori, the first a fig collected off a mountain side The second is the tree that started me questioning the whole idea of urbanadori being more "When collected & grown as a bonsai it looks as it did in the wild." If the wild was suburbia, could that tree exist? For me it seems it can.

Alpine, have fun carving your trainers then go dig a real tree

Gavin, you summed it up beautifully for me, "the word doesn't matter, it's what you do with the treasure that counts"

Matt

[Bretts]

I'm with Matt. As he points out, "yama" means mountain - if we're going to use the term "yamadori', we should respect it's meaning.

I'd prefer to use English phrases, if there's one that's clear. "A find" is nice. I'm perfectly happy to call stuff I dig in the city "garden stock" - it doesn't sound as exciting as an exotic Japanese word, but it's what it is. And "wild stock" for stuff I dig Out There. If I ever get some seriously wind-and-water-affected stumps,(Hi Jan, how are the Lepto obavatum going?) I might call them "yamadori", or maybe just "those rotten cranky old b#$%^~~ds".

But the word doesn't matter a lot, it's what you do with the treasure that counts. I'm not keen on dressing up a rough stump with pom-poms, whatever you call them.

Gavin

I agree with ya Gavin. I kinda relate the people that use the Japanese terms as the kinda people that might use big words just to make themselves sound intelligent. This is a pretty broad statement and I know that some of it comes down to the culture in clubs and even the magazines but why say Goyomatsu when most people know it as Pinus parviflora or Japanese white pine.
Some of the Japanese terms are so very well entrenched such as shari and jin and I am not sure we would go back to saying deadwood branch instead of jin but I do make a habit of using trunk base or root spread instead of nebari and I don't think I have ever used the word Yamadori. I think collected material is very explanatory if an expletive is needed I could say collected from the garden, collected from the bush or collected from the mountain. Or even collected from the Mother in Laws as is often the case with me
Some people may enjoy using the big words but I get more enjoyment out of people understanding what I am trying to say

[bodhidharma]

I have a lot of collected trees and i do not like the use of the word "Yamadori" First and foremost when a tree was collected in old Japan the collector used to venture out and meditate and pray by himself and then scale the mountain and harvest the tree. It was a revered profession. Times have changed, we have bobcats and 4wd's to pull trees out, not really the same thing. The word "Yamadori" had reverence then but not now. Some of the collected Yamadori in Japan are revered to this day. We do not have these trees nor this culture so i think, in our world or culture, we should call them what they are..a collected tree. i have had hard digs myself, eight hours for my large Elm, but i drove to it in my truck with lots of tools in the back. Hessian bags at the ready. It is still a wonderful tree at 90 years of age but hardly a Yamadori. The collective of finding the tree, considering it worthy, and then gathering the tree and finding a worthy buyer who would bring out the best in the tree constitutes the meaning of the word"Yamadori" this is an era that is long gone, even in the Country where the word originated.

[cre8ivbonsai]

Hmm great topic Matt, this can be taken to quite a philosophical level. When talking with other "bonsai people" I personally try to use the Japanese terminology that I have learned in order to convey both my understanding and as a respect to the origins of the artform itself. You can usually tell if people don't understand or prefer the English (Aussie) turn of phrase, in which case I'm more than happy to communicate the same terminology in Australian common terms.
Almost all proffessions and hobbies have a distinct 'lingo' that other people don't understand, sometimes this is cultural but mostly it's for efficiency. Bonsai is no exception, infact is what we do called bonsai? Most of us certainly don't spend years training 12 hours a day under a master (sensei or similar), rather in Australia it is 'propergating and styling miniature trees in pots as an artform' but we prefer to say Bonsai just so we and others know what we are talking about (and for the fact that they're NOT just pot plants!) but also for efficiency of communication.
Language itself is fascinating and ever evolving, we adapt, revive, and reinvent words and there applied meanings all the time, therefore communicating effectively with your intended audience should be the primary goal.
As for this particular word I have more questions than answers ...
Do traditional Japanese bonsai masters care how we adapt their terminology or language into our own? Are they flattered that we try, or discusted that we bastardise those same traditional concepts? Do we care if we do? Are we trying to maintain a traditional art form or evolve it into our own cultural context?

A lot to contemplate, but I'm happy with a mix, a culture of innovation and evolution, with a strong influence to the traditions of the original artform.

In Australia the borrowed word 'Yamadori' broadly means collected material, in Japan it's more refined than that. So who's your audience? What are you comfortable with? And who are you trying not to offend? It's up to you.

Personally I'd just be happy if I could ensure that my 'collected material' lived long enough to make it to a bonsai pot or even their first styling!

Cheers, Ryan