Looking for a sacraficial lamb

[alpineart]

Hi guy ans gals , here i have a couple of ordinary Piunus Nugra's . One being a Nigra Austriaca straight trunk

100_9187.jpg

, the other being a Nigra Maratima slanting

100_9188.jpg

. I believe they graft Mugo's on JBP , both being 2 Needle pines i want to create a aged yamadori back yard manufactured tree .The Austriaca is readily available as is the Maratima up here so sacraficing one of these is niether here nor there .

The Austriaca is estimated at 15 yo and the Maratima at around 25 .I have quite a few other with more radical movement so i don't particularly want to use their trunks for this exercise . The issue i have is not knowing the type of bark on an aged Mugo Google is about as reliable as a flat tyre on a mono cycle .Does any member have an age specimen NON grafted or course that they could post a pic of show the bark type .The bark on these 2 Nigra specimens are like chalk and cheese because of the age difference .

I would appreiate any help ASAP as i plan to cut loose tomorrow .The bark on a tree from down under will no doubt be different to the bark say from Europe .

Cheers Alpineart

[Grant Bowie]

Does this help?

Area around existing and furue jin.JPG

Grant

[alpineart]

Hi Grant , thanks for the speedy reply , it helps heaps , now do yo have a younger specimen . The bark shown hear it close to the Austriaca trunk more-so the the Maratima .The smooth bark on the Mughus is smooth at 8 yo so I'm assuming something around 10-15-20 yo should take on the scale /flaky look and blend well with the smoother bark on the host i plan to use now being the Austriaca . Do you have any around that age . Ideally an Nigra around 8-10 would be a perfect host but i don't have anything worth of hacking to pieces with an established root mass collected a few seasons ago .

Cheers Alpine

100_9192.jpg

Next question for anyone , at what age does the brk begin to flake on a Mugo

[treeman]

It's always better to use varities of the same species when grafting. Besides Mugos having smooth bark for many many years which will look rather odd on a rough barked tree, You have the potential problem of long term incompatibility.
But go ahead and try if you feel the need although now is not the best time of year.

Cheers

[bodhidharma]

About 20-25 i reckon Alpine ooooppppsss thats a Scots pine not a mugo Arrgh ..to many trees.

[alpineart]

Hi Treeman grafted pines aren't graft onto the same root stock or it would be pointless to graft surely As with Bodhi i have acouple of thousand tree's to hack chop and test to the limits , i just don't run a Nursery .

Hi Bodhi , mate thats great now all i need is a Nigra of around 5 yo to match .I don't have anything that young so i may just have to go with the last posted pic ,about 10 -12 yo .Most of the Nigra will be carved out and the Mughus imbedded into the trunk almost flush .Both will hopefully remain alive until such time as i'm satisfied the Mughus has fused and both root systems are coping with the transition as i want the Nigra to grow on without its foliage to aid the Mughus in the power growing department and have a nice 60-80mm base .The Mughus is 1.2m high so it give plenty of scope to really bend and contort as per the European Yamadori collected material .Worse case senario is i will kill two tree's in one chop .

Thanks fella's

Cheers Alpine

P.S , just caught the edit Bodhi , Shari happens

[bodhidharma]

I think this is more like it Alpine

[alpineart]

Hi Bodhi , thanks mate . it looks like a slow progression up the trunk . I plan to use the lower 200-250-- of the nigra and then shari the rest after it fuses , so if it works out it will look quite natural from the start . Well as natural as i can get it .

Cheers Alpine

[treeman]

Hi Treeman grafted pines aren't graft onto the same root stock or it would be pointless to graft surely .

We graft Jbp varieties like kotobuki, yats. mikawa etc onto Jpg
Scotts pine vars. like watereri, Hillside Jeremy etc onto Scotts pine seelings
Jrp varieties onto Jrp seedings etc etc.

[Grant Bowie]

Bark 15 to 20 yrs.jpg

Grant

[alpineart]

Hi Treeman What would you graft a Mughus onto or better still , what is a Mugo Grafted onto I asume Mugo's were grafted onto JBP!!!. I have no horticultural experience apart from my trials and test so yes i'm willing to ask and learn .I asked this question in requards to Colarado Blue Spruce but never received any replies so by all means if you can help with this one as well i'm listening


Cheers Alpineart

[alpineart]

Hi Grant , thanks for the pic , mate it would most certainly be a mis match for a very long time as i now see .I might just have to inarch the lower trunks back onto thee main leader and power feed it in open ground . This 8 year old seed grown Mughus is 1.2m high so they certainly have the speed over a Dwarf Mugo .

If i get a shitty one on Tuesday i may just inarch and fuse 2 together for a 60-70mm trunk and bend and torture the leaders and trunks as i inarch them . . Thanks for the input from all you fella's , much appreciated .Looking forward to creating another monster from a humble thought .

Cheers Alpineart

[treeman]

Hi Treeman What would you graft a Mughus onto or better still , what is a Mugo Grafted onto I asume Mugo's were grafted onto JBP!!!. I have no horticultural experience apart from my trials and test so yes i'm willing to ask and learn .I asked this question in requards to Colarado Blue Spruce but never received any replies so by all means if you can help with this one as well i'm listening


Cheers Alpineart

Hi Alineart , I've never grafted mugos partly because I never had material that I thought really deserved beeing propagated and partly because I couldn't get hold of any seed for root stock. I do believe that I saw some mugos on scotts pine years ago. I was under the impression that you wanted to graft mugos onto maritima?, Not saying it wont work but you might end up with a stark difference in bark textures and colour. If you just want to propagate mugos I would suggest sylvestris as seedlings or maybe black pine but you might end up with bad swelling at the union after a few years. as mugos are slow to increase diam. and the others are fast. This happened to me when I tried Japanese. red pines on scotts even though they are closely related. Try to make sure you graft as close to the roots as possible. Blue spruce is easily grafted onto Picea abies
( norway spruce ) but this time we sometimes have reverse swelling! Hard to win!
Try contacting Conifer gardens nurs. in the dandenongs. You might be lucky to find a dwarf nigra or maritima which would be just what your after.

Cheers.

[shibui]

Alpine,
I grow mugos as cuttings quite readily so never even considered grafting them. No problem with compatibility or bark type with a cutting grown tree.

[alpineart]

Hi Treeman , mate i'm not looking at grafting a shoot but using a Nigra Maratima , 2 needle European Black Pine as a host base trunk to embed the Pinus Mughus into .I want to create an aged yamadori monster like the European guru's collect .Both the Nigra and Mughus must survive however i hope to have minimum foliage left on the Nigra after both fuse together , then twist and contort the Mughus to resemble a 100 yo yamadori .

Over time as quick as this Mughus grows it should look aged in the floiage department , but i can see the bark may take 20 years so the mughus wil be inarched from the rear at the base only , then spiral fused .in 20 yearsI will probably be pushing daisies by then . I want a 60-100mm base on my Mugo x Nigra Monster .Thanks for all you help .

Cheer Alpine