AusBonsai

I have a Gum which i did a layer on (which failed) and need to answer a few questions. Firstly, i applied the layer in the same way you would do an exotic as i know no other way. As you can easily see why i would layer this tree i am hoping to get rid of its reverse taper. I have great success in exotic material and now find this perplexing. So i will ask some questions and, knowing our learned panel of experts, should solve the problem. How lucky are we to have these people on tap.

1) Is the layer deep and wide enough?
2)I did not use clear plastic but instead a large section of poly pipe. The layer is close to the base and poly pipe seemed the easiest and most direct way.
3) Gums can be layered as Fly has shown us..but certain species do not?
4) I thought this was an apple gum but obviously isnt, what is it?

I am looking forward to the question and answer time on this one as i am flustered that i could not have success with this species. I think the tree will have merit one day so i will persist. The rewards with success on Aussie Natives are deep and personally satisfying.

I am no expert with Gums Bodi But I reckon it has to be that you did not remove all the cambium layer or it is too narrow.

Bretts wrote:I am no expert with Gums Bodi But I reckon it has to be that you did not remove all the cambium layer or it is too narrow.

It has grown back over Bretts. It was definitely down to the cambium layer. The layer was done last spring. Thanks, i should have pointed that out. Note taken on width though.

I thought it looked like it had grown back over so it seems like the only reasonable explination that it needed to be deeper or wider or both

Hey Bodhi,

I am no expert but looking at the area you attempted to layer, it looks like it didnt even calous, just healed over... I woul dhave another go & make the cut wider & deeper, not just to the cambium but partially into wood, then I would also apply a thick wire to help try & stop it repairing again.

Look forward to seeing how you go with it, the top certainly does have merit so I would keep trying till I succeed. It is very personally satisfying to see any new experiment with a native that works.

Matt

Gday Bodhi & Co!

From my experience, there are a number of reasons that your layer might have failed:

> You may not have taken off a wide enough section of bark, as Brettles suggested. When I first got into layering, I was told that the rule of thumb was to remove a strip of bark about 1.5 times the diameter of the layer point. Using this guide, it looks as though your layer should have been twice as wide.

> You may not have made your cuts deep enough, as Brettles also suggested. The bark on Eucs can be surprisingly thick - I've worked on youngish Eucs whose bark accounted for between 1/4 and 1/3 of the trunk radius. Looking at your tree, I'd guess that you might need to remove at least 5-8mm of bark to reach the cambium. Rather than slicing the bark, I find that if you place a very sharp blade against the bark and push it directly towards the wood, you will often feel a 'pop' when the blade breaks through the bark and hits wood. Do this around the entirety of both top and bottom cuts, then slice a line between the two, and you should be able to peel off the ring of bark intact. At least with River Red Gums, there is quite a marked visual/textural difference between the bark and the wood beneath: the bark is often lighter in colour, and tends to shred into vertical strands, whereas the wood can be semi-opaque or translucent and quite slick and smooth.

> Your layering medium may have dried out at some stage during the process. If this happens before the tree has created roots, the layer will likely fail.

Sorry for the essay, but I've tried to cover as many possibilities as I can think of.

Now, get back into layering the top off those ugly roots!

Thanks, good luck and keep us posted!

Fly.

FlyBri wrote: Sorry for the essay, but I've tried to cover as many possibilities as I can think of.

Hey Fly,

Thanks heaps for the essay, can never be too much information on anything, its great to have someone like yourself with such extensive first hand experience for us all to draw on.


Matt

Hi Bodhi,

-Was it left too long? It may have formed roots which die quickly if the cambium is bridged.
-I like to do my layering at a time when growth is most vigorous, and in most cases leave for only 6-7 weeks.

Thanks also for the essay Fly You can never give or receive enough wisdom. Thanks for your input also Bretts and Matt. NOW IF I COULD JUST GET THE TREE I.D,ed that would be great

bodhidharma wrote:NOW IF I COULD JUST GET THE TREE I.D,ed that would be great

Gday Bodhi!

The leaves look a little like Red Box (Eucalyptus polyanthemos). Hope this helps!

Fly.

bodhidharma wrote: NOW IF I COULD JUST GET THE TREE I.D,ed that would be great

You know its a Euc what more do you want???? geeezzz, really, if I knew what all the mystery stuff on my benchs was I would forget the ones I already know.

Just get it layered & then we can spend another decade or 2 debating what it is

Matt

Rather than slicing the bark, I find that if you place a very sharp blade against the bark and push it directly towards the wood, you will often feel a 'pop' when the blade breaks through the bark and hits wood. Do this around the entirety of both top and bottom cuts, then slice a line between the two, and you should be able to peel off the ring of bark intact.

That's very similar advice to what I put in the topic 'Rookie needs some Bonsai advice' in the Air layer reply I did:

Next, with a very sharp knife (Stanley or similar) and just below the node (if using a cut off branch, place the blade at the top of the scar), push the blade into the bark till you feel a lot of resistance. Don't saw at the bark; push the edge of the blade in. When you come up against that resistance, and keeping the pressure on the blade, cut right round the trunk to where you started. Do the same about 3-4 cm further down the trunk. You now have two rings round the trunk. With the knife, make one cut from the top ring to the bottom one and lever the bark off all the way round the branch. It may not come off all in one piece so keep peeling till it is all off

Two people can't be wrong - so it must be good advice Bodhi Seriously, it is good advice and it's also the way I do it. It makes sure you don't go too deep and you don't go too shallow.

There are a couple of other things you could try to stop the layer growing over again.

The first is to redo your ring bark and then wind a piece of wire around the trunk in the bare section. I don't know whether a tree callouses over from the bottom up or from the top down, so maybe one wire close to the top of the bare section and one at the bottom might be a good idea. Wind the wire around once then once again then twitch the ends up tight. That will ensure the wire is in continual contact with the bare wood and should stop any callousing progressing from one end to the other. This photo below is another method of doing a layer that I have known to be used. It may be ok with fast growing species like figs, but I don't think I'd recommend it for your Eucalypt. I've only done this as an experiment, and in hindsight I think I should have taken my own advice and wrapped the wire around twice - this one has the potential to callous at the join in the wire (time will tell).

The other I was thinking about is to use a disc about 3 or more centimetres wider than your tree diameter with the centre cut to the exact diameter of the bare wood section. When in place, it is covered top and bottom with damp sphagnum moss and plastic sheet over the whole thing. It effectively stops any callousing and also causes the roots to move out horizontally. This method I have actually seen used and it worked. The one I saw done used an old AC/DC CD (good use for it ) and was cut in half across the centre. The two half holes in the centre were filed to fit the bare section and two bits of plastic were cut to join the two halves together around the trunk with small screws put through them and through the disc to hold it in place. Personally, I think this way is too time consuming and a bit fiddly but anything is worth a try I reckon. A disc cut from an ice cream container would also work, and because it's flexible, only one side needs to be cut. It can then be twisted open, put around the trunk and the join held in place with some duct tape or plastic strips and screws.

If I was going to attempt either of the above, I think I'd try the wire - it would be a lot quicker to do.

Thank you Gentlemen for your input. A red box you think thats gonna make it hard to reduce leaf size. Oh well it can keep my underdeveloped river red company Thanks Fly. I dont know if i have two decades left Matt. Time will tell

from my inexperienced viewpoint, it looks like the bark grew back with no callus tissue forming. In my situation, and using rooter pots which are easy to remove and replace, I would check it regularly, and scrape away any bark which looked like it was trying to bridge. If the rooting mix is loose-ish, and one is gentle, it is unlikely that new roots could be broken off while checking.
I have set up layers using 'found' materials, but these tend to be so hard to assemble that it isn't really possible to check on the layer until it is time to remove. I am normally a patient person, but fiddling with wire and tape, stray bits of plastic and potting mix around an uncooperative bit of trunk does tend to lead to shadehouse rage.

HMMM,shadehouse rage, that would be impressive to see. I reckon we would get to throw stuff Thanks Greth, i think the occasional check is important and i will set this one up to do that.