AusBonsai

I have just started digging some of this year's field grown trees. This trident has been in the ground for 3 years. In another thread I advised not leaving tridents for more than a few years. The large root on the left shows why. It will take some time to heal this large cut and produce good roots in the area.
I usually cut back roots first.
Then prune the top to suit the nebari (root/ trunk mass)
The next step is to put the tree into a growing box for a couple of years to develop the branching.

that root is thick isnt it mate im interested that you have basically done a "flat" cut as such, obviously you have know worries in it growing a new rot system from this, have you used hormone on the roots? the trunk is going to be nice, are you going to turn some of the pruning scars into uro? the taper looks quite good, was that selected while ground growing or have you just selectively pruned for taper? it looks lke it was specifically grown to me but there are a lot of branching there it is hard to tell (well not any more )

jamie

The taper is great in it and has nice easy momement. Like it alot
if you don't mind saying could you tell us how you go about ground growng your tridents, I'm wantng to put a few of my tridents in the ground for a while (there just 2 year old seedlings) so it would be good to hear how you go about doing it.

Thanks
Hugh

Hi shibui,

Thank you for sharing this -- my guts wrenched seeing how heavy you have handled the tree

I have never been this daring yet -- I am about to dig up some tridents as well.

I have also put some down to the ground.

Would it be advisable to check the big roots once in awhile and chop them off while the trees
are still in the ground?

Thanks shibui.

Best regards.

Hi shibui,
Looks nice mate! Planning on putting a few in the ground myself an looking at getting the bed ready soon any tips on what to throw in there(types of soil, dynamic lifter, cow manure???) and quantities would be great!

Hi Jamie - Not sure what you mean about a 'flat' cut but there's definitely no problem with roots growing back. Tridents typically shoot quite a few new roots around the cut edge when roots are pruned - the more often you rootprune the more fine roots you get. I do not use hormone on cut roots. I remember hearing somewhere that rooting compounds do not have any effect on roots but have not actually confirmed this personally anyway it is not necessary - roots grow back very easily and reliably.
The scars on the trunk where branches were removed are not very big and should heal over while the tree is growing new branches over the next 2-4 years. They should heal over not quite flat to give the trunk some character rather than a perfectly smooth trunk.
Taper in field grown trees comes from encouraging lateral (horizontal) roots and getting rid of vertical ones. Strong lateral roots really make the trunk base flare out. Plenty of branches low on the trunk also encourages the trunk to thicken - as I have said in other threads, regular pruning to encourage lots of shoots helps produce taper and means fewer large pruning scars. A bit of luck helps too. Not all field grown trees end up with taper like this.

Daiviet - When I started growing trees in the ground I was also reluctant to prune roots hard. When I dug my first trees I pruned roots just enough to fit into a poly box. Then I spent a few years growing good branches on the trunks. When I wanted to put them into bonsai pots guess what? - The roots were too long and had to be cut back to fit into the pot. This left a tree with established branches with no roots. I decided it was better to cut back harder right at the start when there is only a trunk to support. Pruning roots right back also forces many more roots to grow from close to the trunk and this ends up producing a much better nebari (lower trunk/ root junction).
I don't think it would be practical to check roots while the tree is growing in the ground. I try to transplant the trees every 2-3 years to minimise over large roots.
Hoodie - any ground will do for growing trees. The richer it is the quicker the trees will grow. Vege garden soil is great. I add a large barrow of composted manure to about 2m of row and plant the trees about 40 - 50 cm apart. I am lucky to have lovely gritty soil rather than clay. This soil shakes off the roots quite easily when they are dug. I think it would be harder to clean the roots if they were grown in clay soil.

I will post more about field growing trees when I have time.

hi mate thanks for the info
that is what i ment by flat cut, i do it with figs all the time, i know were talknig tridents, and from what you are saying on how they reshoot so well it probably wouldnt be a problem either. generally once i have done a flat cut i put a chamfer around the "flat cut" trunk so the roots go laterally instead of down, it helps in that sense.

i wont even go near tridents let alone maples any more anyways, i look at them and they start to droop a little then they just sulk and die, i have tried and tried though, no luck at all.

jamie

Oh yeah... Because of previous root work this tree had very few vertical roots so just pruning everything back gave enough of a flat cut look and certainly flat enough to go into a bonsai pot. It will need future root pruning when the branch and planting angle is established but for now this is fine.
My tridents have a very strong tendency to produce a new set of roots at the surface of the soil. I found that if I planted the seedlings a little deep they would end up with two sets of lateral roots, often the new ones at the surface were better so I just sawed off the trunk under the new roots.
I would hesitate to just cut off thetrunk leaving no roots like you can with figs or olives but maybe it would be possible???

How much of a seperation is needed between plants when grown in the ground?

ahhh thanks mate

i cant see why you couldnt do a flat cut like figs or olives with them, being that if it was done i would cut through the root structure leaving the top section of root like in the mudmap, being that it was a root i would hazard a guess that there would be the energy needed to establish a new root system from it without drama, i would try it on a not so good a tree though just incase..

i know what ya mean by how they would grow a second set of roots if they have been planted to deep, the celtis i collected back on new years 2009/2010 had exactly the same thing, i flat cut the top set near the trunk to get the bottom section off, me being me i planted the bottom set into a cut down nursery can just thinking it might be ok and a few weeks later it had new shoots coming from it, now it stands about 2 foot tall, im letting it grow out so it matches back up with the original trunk size, i was thinking if it works it might make a nice raft, it re shot from some of the root spread, and has a couple of sub trunks aswell, so i am undecided on wether i go raft or single.

anyways sorry to get off track

i really like where this one s going, look forward to seeing some more

jamie

From everything i have ever read on the boards and certainly the way shibui is describing their behaviour, leads me to believe that if any deciduous tree can be flat bottomed??? The trident it is!!! Maybe even Crepe Mrytle's. An important point here is the grittiness of shibui's soil mix, the bare trunk scenario to sustain such severe root chopping. It sounds a heavan to induce prolific root growth, on a giant cutting as such. Thanks Shibui, very informative!

Hi shibui,

shibui wrote:When I wanted to put them into bonsai pots guess what? - The roots were too long and had to be cut back to fit into the pot. This left a tree with established branches with no roots.

Thanks for that point -- I found that very helpful.

Was it a seedling when you put it to the ground shibui?

Thanks and best regards.

Hello again everyone
This particular tree was a year or so old when it went in the ground. I do put one year seedlings in but they are a bit hit and miss with roots so I grow the seedlings for a year or 2 to establish a good root system before putting them in the ground. I'll take a few photos and show the process eventually...

Jamie - As long as there is some root left on the trunk it should grow new roots. I have cut big roots in half horizontally and they sprout new roots from the cut edges (still attached to the tree) I did try some root cuttings of tridents once. They stayed alive for a year but did not produce shoots so I guess the below surface parts do not have growth buds?? un like elms and it seems your celtis which sprout shoots from any piece of root or stem.

Hartos i plant trees about 50 cm apart in rows because that leaves enough space to cut the roots between trees when you want to dig them but they might grow quicker planted further apart.

Ant - I would add elms to the list of trees that can be cut back really hard, maybe even flat bottomed. Not sure I would cut a trident leaving no roots though like they do with figs and olives. Tridents do not always strike reliably as cuttings so I would not like the chances of a giant cutting in the open ground but having said that I have not been too successful with olive cuttings either but they aparently root ok when cut through the widest part of the 'bulb' root base even leaving no roots!

All good thoughts and expeiences Shibui thanks!

Time to update progress on this tree.
Its 18 months since this tree was dug from the growing beds, pruned hard and potted into a training pot. Here's what it looks like now. The new branches were allowed to grow freely last year to thicken a bit but have been pruned this year to give movement and encourage some side shoots. They are still too thin but will continue to thicken as they develop.
The bark is just starting to roll over the scars where the large branches were cut off. It will take another couple of years for the scaes to close over and for the branches to develop good ramification. In the meantime lots of feed and water to make it grow to assist development of the branches and closing the scars.