AusBonsai

I am just a newbie, scared to damage plants...but normal easy plants I bare root trim and plant. Difficult plants If planted in the ground I remove in stages...I dig and cut 1-2 roots near the trunk, and bury again....water surface mostly, so they develop shallow roots...after 2 month I dig carefully and see if new roots have emerged and repeat on another side...I also mark the area where the root was cut. I never kept bonsai but had nurseries for donkey years.
Some plants I plant in poly packets two of them...one much smaller that the other...and again do reduction for difficult plants in stages. I first remove the outer packer and remove all escaped roots.
Then at a later stage I cut cut the packet in half...wait for some time and then bare root and do light trim...
Now I am experimenting with a new method...for growing roots for good nebari...got the idea from here: But thought the pipes are a bit cumbersome...so this is how I am trying...This are plants I just brought from abroad...not well rooted yet. In spring I shall bare root them and plant them shallow in the packet...and direct the surface roots through the holes, so they grow in the large container bellow. Some roots might escape through the holes under the packet but dont think it will be that big a deal.
Dont know yet how it will work, but logically I expect good results.
I guess a bonsai pot can be put on top / or buried a large container and the roots taken over the edge ...I saw someone put plastic under the surface roots...like half pipe and covered the roots with soil...Let me look for the picture: I dont see a reason why a pot can not be buried if a good drainage is provided under it...
So this is what I did:




What do you think? Will it work? Do you see any problems?

Since my post has been made into a thread...I shall add this here so it is in the same place.
This is a tamarind...they cut the bark and turn it into roots for nebari...lots of commercial growers do it in Asia. Probably works??? I posted it on another thread...but thought I shall add it here since it is in line with the topic heading.
Maybe you can get a nebari like that faster????

I have to ask..are those large trees yours, or are they an example of what you are trying to achieve as they are great specimens.

Unfortunately, only some are mine, the big ones are not mine...I just posted them as an example of what I was trying to explain. They are from my wall on FB.

My Concern would be that the mix in the bottom pot isn't free draining enough...but you made it so you would know if that is or isn't the case.
I also think that it would have been better to wait to get the tree out of the nursery soil and replace it with bonsai mix first, also eliminating the roots growing directly under the tree.
As is, the roots that grow out from the bottom of the pot may not be a major issue as you said, but to me it makes better sense to get rid of the downward growing roots first. That way you are not only encouraging the trunk to flare out more at the base of the tree as the roots develop over time, but you are also directing the energy into the roots that you wish to develop (lateral growing surface roots), and not waisting energy growing the roots that are growing downwards from underneath the trunk. This may also speed the growth of the roots you wish to develop outside of the first container into the second.
I like the way the roots of the Casuarina in the first pic are grown by Robert Stevens and the Indonesian's, and I think that that technique is great.
Thanks for sharing Neli and best of luck.
Cheers, Dario.
PS forgot to say that I like that you always seem to be experimenting with techniques and trying to develop those techniques in a way that makes sense to you.

Actually at the moment the tree is in a bonsai soil in the packet...Just has some manure on top. The soil in the large container is mostly well washed river sand...some charcoal, compost and manure...
It is very free draining and it has drainage at the bottom too. The plants have no tap roots. They were removed already.
The holes in the packets are on the sides....at the lower part of the packet...and the packets are not deep...maybe 15cm so under the tree there is 10cm soil at most...if the roots escape from the side of the packet...it will be OK...
Later I shall put them in mach shallower plastic...so that they will be easy to fit into a bonsai pot. I shall be checking the surface roots in the beginning and chopping them also so that more forking is encouraged...and large thick roots are avoided.

A free draining mix should be made up of gravel like material/ media like diatomite , zeolight , pumice . Pine bark . Just to name a few. That mix you are using looks like it will give you problems . Also the large pots are a bad idea especially with a mix like that . Over potting can cause its own problems as its not the same as planting in the ground Read up on modern bonsai mixs get diatomite and zeolite mixed 80/20 with the dust removed trees will thrive in that mix. Even in big pots!
Sorry to be so negative about what u are doing but I feel it's the truth and you are here for answers .

Paul.

Paulneill wrote:A free draining mix should be made up of gravel like material/ media like diatomite , zeolight , pumice . Pine bark . Just to name a few.

That is what the media in the plastic is...the more normal but well draining potting mix is in the large pot...and that has drainage at the bottom. So that mix should be treated as a mix for a potted plant and not a bonsai.

That mix you are using looks like it will give you problems . Also the large pots are a bad idea especially with a mix like that . Over potting can cause its own problems as its not the same as planting in the ground Read up on modern bonsai mixs get diatomite and zeolite mixed 80/20 with the dust removed trees will thrive in that mix. Even in big pots!

The principle of overpotting you are referring to I am aware of...and that applies to bonsai mix in a bonsai container and the principle that causes soggy medium in a too large bonsai pot, does not apply here.

Sorry to be so negative about what u are doing but I feel it's the truth and you are here for answers .

Paul.

The soil in the large pot should be considered as normall potting medium....just for thickening the roots , the way you will plant any ordinary plant in a pot, and it will not rot or get soggy.
I dont know if you noticed that I mentioned that there is drainage at the bottom...

Thanks Neli, I should not of made so many assumptions from looking at pics. I thought the plants had not had any root work done and were still in nursery soil.
Best of luck and please update your results.
Cheers, Dario.

Hi Neli I think what Paul was trying to get across was that "normal potting medium" is not what we use for growing on and DEFINITELY not in bonsai pots. The easier the water will run though the better. As a rule I use a minimum of 50% diatomite in with a good quality potting mix (one that has large pieces of bark in it) I have planted some trees in bonsai pots in a mix of just diatomite and scoria with the average diameter of the particles to be 6mm. No fines and no soil and the tree love it.

Hi Dario,
It is OK...You did not make assumptions...it looks like soil in the picture. How were you to know.? It is just an experiment...lets see how it will progress.

Bougy Fan wrote:Hi Neli I think what Paul was trying to get across was that "normal potting medium" is not what we use for growing on and DEFINITELY not in bonsai pots. The easier the water will run though the better. As a rule I use a minimum of 50% diatomite in with a good quality potting mix (one that has large pieces of bark in it) I have planted some trees in bonsai pots in a mix of just diatomite and scoria with the average diameter of the particles to be 6mm. No fines and no soil and the tree love it.

Thanks for the advise!
Why is bonsai mix, composed of large, particles used? To promote very fine hairy roots...and to prevent root rot. That is so that You utilize the space of the pot to the maximum benefit of the plant.
Do I want to develop hairy roots in the outside container? Not necessarily, since they will be chopped within the small plastic, after they thicken in order to create a nebari. All the roots that are going to grow within the inner plastic are in bonsai mix...so I hope that is where the fine roots will develop, dew to the media used.
Do I fear that root rot will happen in the outer container??? No...the soil is 100 times more drainable than the soil I use in my packets /pots...for growing pot plants. (I have a nursery) There is a layer of stones on the bottom, to prevent the holes being blocked with soil, and assist with drainage.
If you notice the growers in Asia are using ground soil to thicken the roots, after channeling them in pipes...I dont see much difference regarding the principle of the method...apart from the fact that they have much more space in the ground...If you puncture the packet some more...you can use it instead of colander, just the same way You use it with plants in the ground, for thickening the trunk. It is much cheaper...and much easier to use. The difference here in this case between the colander and my packet is that there are no holes in the middle of the packet, which I hope will promote prioritized development/thickening of the top roots, instead of all roots, since I want to thicken only the surface roots and train them..
I initially thought that he is referring to the phenomenon of too big bonsai pot filled with bonsai medium...that contains a small plant with few roots, as described by Brent from evergreen garden works:
http://www.bonsai4me.com/Basics/Basics% ... otting.htm
In this case...Part of the plant grown as bonsai is in a bonsai mix in a small packet...Then part of the plant (some roots) are grown in the outer part of the large container as a normal potted plant. This can be done in the ground also...using a punctured packet instead of colander. I shall do that with most of my hard to root reduce plants like tamarind...and some other...It is less stressful to the plant when doing root reduction, since you have the advantage of growing roots for nebari on the outside...and fine roots on which the plant can fall back when root trimmed, inside the bonsai pot /packet in this case.
Actually all my hard to transplant trees are planted in the ground with the packets...and I use the escape root which is almost the same as this...So far I had no problems...just that those packets have holes at the bottom only.Of late, for the past few month...I am making large holes at the top on most plants that are put in the ground...so I have what to compare...those without and those with holes at the top.
Well that was my logic, but I can be wrong...the results at the end will show if it works or not.