AusBonsai

I have posted this tree elsewhere but i want to touch on a subject which i have wrestled with for a while now. In my quest to create the unusual or "DRAMATIC" type of tree which is attention grabbing i find i lose the vision of what i would call a CLASSICAL tree. i realized this while sitting and looking at this tree and its trunk thinking..could i raffia this and develop some movement, could i cut it down and begin again, blah blah. This is the head talking to me when its design is staring me in the face. Do we lose the ability as Artists with so many tools and methods on our hands to change and create, to see the classical tree right in front of us Do we also lose the APPEAL of a classical tree because our mind looks for the unusual and twisted and bent. At a show do we walk past the stock standard tree in favour of the twisted and bent ones. I have decided to keep this tree as a stock standard upright tree and see if i have the expertise to create something spectacular from this. It is not even going to get a jin or a lightning struck top. All input on this subject (especially if you have thought the same thing) most welcome. I hope (but doubt) the branches will set where they are without undercutting but i will go slowly. I also realize the tree has a long way to go but i hope the effort will be worth it.

I think this is a really good question, and one that is particularly relevant to conifers. It seems deadwood is king and if you don't have it your tree is boring. Unless you're looking at the classic Japanese black pines. But as you have styled this it looks just like a lot of large, majestic pines I have seen growing out in the forest. I think this style is absolutely valid, and it's nice to see it done. In fact I've been lamenting the trend toward the lightning struck look in formal uprights. Hard to find a good one without that, and it seems to me that it's done to speed development and hide trunk chops as much as anything else. Which is fine, but as you say, shouldn't be done on all.

It's important to let the tree speak. Some tell wonderful stories of survival and torture. To me, this one speaks of proud strength. This is the king of the forest. The others might be twisted and half dead because this tree grew fastest and monopolized the light and nutrients available.

Hi Bodhi,

If you mean a classical tree as a formal upright? Then sure, they can be stunning. They are just a lot more subtle then the whole saba miki shimpaku. I read about hobbyist trending toward the instant tree somewhere, that so many people are looking for the quick bonsai now. You know, the yamadori that is transformed in a weekend session. It happens a lot right here on Ausbonsai. But you can never do that with a classically styled formal tree, it takes a lot of time and skill to create a good formal upright.

Nice tree, I think it has a good future.

Paul

I find this an intersting topic and as a newbie I don't see myself as qualified to say this or that should be done to a tree in terms of styling. I have some food for thought from my other addiction though. I am in the wine game and see so many winemakers trying to make their wines "fit in" for wine judging shows or percieved customer trends when in my opinion the wines made would be better if not tweked so much and just let the wine be wine. So in terms of Bonsai perhaps sometimes that tree that is not over worked and overblown is the true beauty in the pack......just my worth.
Cheers Peter.

A very valid question. I purchased 2 identical ceder many years ago and both took very different directions. 1 is similar to this post as a proud formal upright and the other slanted and about half the size, it is most important to let the tree decide its future (perhaps with a little push in the desired direction).

bodhidharma wrote:I ...find i lose the vision of what i would call a CLASSICAL tree.

About a year ago I set myself the personal discipline of only developing formal uprights*.

I hope that this will help me improve my insight.

And, like the perfectly boiled egg, I think formal uprights are rather underappreciated.

*no, my other trees are not being cast out. And I will make an exception for yamadori.

Hi Bodhi , mate i see many interesting tree's in my travels and mother nature does a wonderful job in a standard form . This tree appeals to me in both pics and i would certainly be happy to have either . Mother nature also does a spectacular job in the contorted sense of the word . The beauty of collecting Yamadori is there is very few the same , nursery grown material is basically out of the same mould unless manipulated during its growing period and depending on its purpose .

For garden tree's they are usually untouched so they take on a natural growth habit , bonsai material is in most case manipulated in some form or another . So we can have a basic standard shape natural growth or choose to contort the buggers which in most cases is done . How many actual Sumo Trident's grow naturally , i have yet to see one , "just one example". Most pines grow with multiple bar branches yet its a no-no in bonsai , I have seen some fantastic examples of pines with bare branches , very well balanced and natural looking mini tree's .

This tree has natural appeal and it will only improve over time . Again most of the material in the Northern Hemisphere in collected from area's that don't exist here let alone the species and ages of this material .I would like to see more natural looking Bonsai but that may bore some , and the Northerners don't seem to play with garden plants only Yamadori or purpose grown material . Basically they just have to style the foliage as the collected trunk or pre bonsai material has had many years to develop .

There's good and bad examples in both , but i think there is a place for both in Bonsai .

Cheers Alpine

When Kimura was here he was heard to say of Carving and such, that it isn't done on trees less than 100 years old!!. the late John Y Naka, is quoted as saying make your Bonsai look like a tree and not your tree look like a Bonsai.

Wrongly attributed to Walter Pall, that he invented the Naturalistic style of a tree, he just prefers it, and advocates its use more than what we call classical. The Japanese have been styling SHIZENGI ( natural style ) for years.

What has this to do with Bodhi's question, well my take is what is Classical style?. The Japanese style is said to be contemporary now. The early picture's of tree from the turn of the 20th century are what are termed as classical.

Then when they are bought by another owner they are restyled. Some win big prizes, and they do not have one iota of jin or shari.

So this is another good thread posted by Bohdi let us hope it stays here and does not go the way of so many good posts.

By the way I believe with time, this tree will become one of those WOW trees.
Cheers Pup

Hi Bodhi,

Thanks once again for posting such a wonderful tree and bringing this topic up for discussion..

My opinion is that beauty and appreciation is in the eye of the beholder...
Really one cannot seem to please everyone with a Bonsai - it is but art in a living form?

Proof of this would be the pieces that Ant posted of Nacho's masterpieces..
All would be works of art in their own right yet they conjured mixed reviews from all who commented (myself included).

Personally I love the stock standard trees and sometimes these images of perfection are those that wow me..
On other occasions - they are not...

At the end of the day the masses will follow the trends and be it is Shari, Sumo, Large Nebari, FU, ROR right now well clearly this will potentially field the most resounding support.. It may even lead to a "wow" tree at any given time.
However trends change and people change... The potentially "bland" formal upright and "stock" style might not be the current flavour of the month for some, but rest assured it will be for others.. There is potential for "the others" to be a minority right now but that might be on the cusp of change...

Do what you wish - your tree - your choice - your design - your journey..

FWIW - I love you tree in all it's fuzzy youth in Pic 1..
I love your tree in it's new guise as a more mature adult in Pic 2.
I would personally double take on this tree as I respect the Formal Upright style and believe it is a particular hard art to convincingly achieve.

Keep up the good work.

Great Post Bodhi,

When i started in this hobby there was no internet, just books and i didn't see many carved, bent etc trees in them. Most were the classical styles so to speak. Now adays it seems the hobby has grown to suit different tastes and extremes and time frames.
I do appreciate some of the trees that are extreme so to speak but i do feel some are overly exagerated with huge unnatural effects.

Personally i prefer the classic stuff that i grew up with, just love the natural look of a tree.......

As the old saying goes sometimes, "Less is More".
Regards
Rudy

Nice tree with some age already
There is definitely a place in any collection for a formal upright --here is my first attempt that I started about 15 months ago-nursery stock-one basic styling when purchased (it was a twin trunk)-and more styling earlier this year-now about 55cm tall-I may have to rethink the no. and placement of branches to age it a little-there are also a couple of nebari issues to sort out-and hopefully the trunk removal scar will heal over ok. When suggestions were called for more comps I suggested 'formal upright' as a good challenge with regard to revisiting the basic rules--a good challenge for new and old.

Guy wrote:When suggestions were called for more comps I suggested 'formal upright' as a good challenge with regard to revisiting the basic rules--a good challenge for new and old.

Formal upright would be an interesting challenge. It may be basic, but that doesn't mean it's easy!

For me personal taste comes into it. Formal upright does nothing for me, just not my style. I love music but dont listen to hip hop, I can appreciate classical music when I hear it but I dont play it.
I love ALL trees in nature but I would not try to represent all of them in Bonsai, only the ones that take my breath away. Just personal taste.
Hope I havent gotten off topic.

Bodhi, I (like you?) often seem to get caught up in the artistic expression, the imagination and [attempting to] push technical boundaries, and yes often discard the thought of more traditional styling in favor of setting a personal artistic challenge. Some times this pays off and I get tree that has an unusual direction yet is still composed, balanced and follows [some] technical guidelines, other times it doesn't work and a new direction must be applied. There are times when a tree (whatever its style) has a more extreme styling is applied as cover for a mistake, styling malfunction or accident (such as a possum eating all but one bud of my cedar ). Then, often, I find myself at exhibitions staring in amazement at the technical achievements that some of the more classically trained bonsai display and simply appreciate them for all the skill, energy and patience that has gone into producing such an aesthetically pleasing and detailed composition. A few weekends back I was at the Vietnamese TET festival helping our club out with the combined bonsai display, of which the Vietnamese bonsai club also had trees. Whilst talking with the owner own of some of the more spectacular trees (mostly blue cedars in more traditional styles), we came to a more contemporary styled tree that everyone else had 'ood and aahd' over (a cedar that looped around several times inside a crescent pot), yet he was dismissive of it saying that it was an easy trick to achieve such an outcome. I guess the point is saturation levels, if you're subjected to the same styles and techniques, something different to that will always draw your attention.

As for your cedar, it will make a great formal upright; the tree has the basic structure, and we know you have the skills, you now just need to afford the tree the energy and patience it requires, and then I can come and stare in amazement

Ryan

Super topic, and thanks for posting. I am still contemplating the first question question you posed and I will get back when the answer flashes before my eyes.
Until then I will continue to try and make a few clasical styled bonsai, and a few jaw droppers and hope that one day one will be OK.