AusBonsai

So I watched this video the other night and Ryan mentions that it is important to leave some old needles on two needle pines due to the hormones they produce.

I have not heard this before and thought that there may be some ideas as to why this is important?



Scott.

That was good. Thanks for posting Scott.

I hadn't heard that about the old needles either and will give it a try on a couple of my pines to see the result. My belief was that the old needles had to be removed to push the development of adventitious buds and seeing how it was handled in Japan on some really old, developed trees, the old needles were removed. But there's always more than one way to skin a cat.

But there's always more than one way to skin a cat, the wrong way and the right way(No Offense Mr Martin).
Pines need hormones for back budding and this hormone needs more than one season to develop.
New needle does not have this readily available so you need the old needles. This is also synthesized by the shading (less light) by the old needles existence.
i am not a plant or tree expert but my Dad is and this is what he taught me.
if you want to dig deeper about his topic, here's a link you could start from http://www.biology-online.org/11/10_gro ... rmones.htm

Watching this is getting me very excited about the 2013 AABC Seminar. I cant wait.

bki wrote:But there's always more than one way to skin a cat, the wrong way and the right way(No Offense Mr Martin).
Pines need hormones for back budding and this hormone needs more than one season to develop.
New needle does not have this readily available so you need the old needles. This is also synthesized by the shading (less light) by the old needles existence.
i am not a plant or tree expert but my Dad is and this is what he taught me.
if you want to dig deeper about his topic, here's a link you could start from http://www.biology-online.org/11/10_gro ... rmones.htm

Interesting. Are these hormones 'required' for back budding? Often old needles are removed to allow light to inner buds to ensure they don't weaken due to lack of light, so there must be a happy medium somewhere. Plants usually give priority and strength to terminal growth so do these hormones prevent back budding or increase it? As I understand it, part of needle plucking's role is to weaken outer growth and strengthen inner growth, to leave too many outer needles will weaken inner candles so i wonder how this relates.....

was i right in assuming that when Ryan was talking about this he was talking about Japanese red pines?

Very interesting topic and i would be interested in hearing from anyone that has a good knowledge of plant hormones in 2 needle pines and their use/ management in a bonsai scenario.

joe

......I was just thinking some more about it. You should end up with needles that are 1.5-2 years old following the regular JBP techniques. I wonder if this time frame is enough for adequate hormone production.

Hmmmmm?

Yeah Jow, we remove (not totally and only when we have the inner buds) old needles in selected areas to allow light for inner buds. This tells us when and where to cut old needles. By the way, We don't finger fluck needles, we trim them with small sharp scissors one to two needles at a time.
this is the method i was taught and hope that i will continuosly improve it with some expert advise from this forum. Just like you i am very interested to hear from people with enthusiasm and expertise on this topic.
regards,
BKI

Interesting to hear different opinions, especially plucking or cutting old needles.
Earlier this year we had this discussion with Boon who favours plucking, he suggested that the old sheaths would be a haven for pests and that plucking the needles at the correct time should not adversely affect the production of new buds.
The counter argument that cutting the needles cannot ever damage the bark is quite valid.
I suppose a cut needle would leave some of these hormones intact?

Cutting vs plucking is a totally different argument.

There are two types of back buds. Needle buds and adventitious buds.

For refined trees needle buds are net really required if you grow and maintain your tree correctly as you are looking to create new growth at the base of spring growth (adventitious buds), so plucking is a better method to employ. It's neater, leaves less places for pests to hide over winter.

Developing trees on the other hands do not have the existing branch structure so you want to encourage as many buds as possible to build branching. In this case you should cut needles and leave the sheath to ensure that maximum chance of the needle buds being protected. Best way is to leave many old needles in locations where you want branches and cross your fingers.

While observing my own trees i have noticed that needle buds are usually much weaker that adventitious buds and require a season or two of very careful growth in order to get them to strengthen where as the adventitious buds seem to be strong from the get go.

I guess at the end of the day results speak for them selves. If you can keep a pine healthy, with good sized needles and a combination of dense branching and back budding that allows you to maintain a trees outline over time, then it doesn't matter what technique you use as long as it works.

yeah Joe i totally agree that a care for a refined tree is always different from a tree under development (which all of my trees are now at the moment).
Just to clarify, all of my previous statements were for red and black pines under initial development as Ryan mentioned in the video.

So I emailed Ryan.

Hi Ryan,

I recently watched this video of you on youtube.

What I found most interesting was when you mentioned that it is important to leave some old needles on two needle pines due to the hormones they produce. I have not heard this before and was wondering if this was a technique for stressed trees, trees in training, or highly refined trees? Are these hormones required for back budding or just for general growth?

I have been using similar techniques that you mention for JBP/JRP for a few years now and the results have been great. However, I am always open to ways of improving my technique.

I am very much looking forward to having you visit us in Canberra, Australia in 2013, especially the tree critique.

Thanks

Ryan replied

Scott,

Its a general health thing in that older needles are photosynthetically less efficient while still consuming resources. However, if you remove all of them consistently on a yearly basis you will see a black or red pine weaken exponentially. Most people see this in the form of needles getting smaller and smaller which they think is a good thing, however, the repercusions generally express themselves as succumbing to adverse conditions the tree would normally survive if it were strong.

I'll see you this coming year and am very much looking forward to it. Merry Christmas!

Ryan

So it seems it is not to do with needle plucking/cutting or back budding just general tree health. Maybe we just need to give our pines a break and let them be trees once in a while

Another video from Bonsai Eejit, with some more explanation


and another...

Getting excited too......

When is it? I really can't miss this one

by Gareth » 17 Feb 2013, 09:03

When is it? I really can't miss this one

It's in May. See 26th AABC National Bonsai Convention - 2013 Canberra on viewtopic.php?f=25&t=13392
Note: enrolments have been coming in fast. The workshops with Ryan Neil are full as far as participants go, but there are still observers' places and there are also open places at workshops with other headliners.

Lisa