Feeding, Substrate and Watering Methods of Walter Pall

[Matt Jermy]

"I dont think its a matter of restlessness, more a case of wanting everything NOW!... They want instant results and are not prepared to allow nature to do her thing her way. I feed more nowdays (constantly & heavily) than I used to (2-3times a year & then only lightly) but my trees didnt die even over a long term due to low feed rates, they simply lived on there means, growing slowly & surely a little each year. I have also acquired trees that havent been fed in over a decade, the colour isnt great but the tree still grows & produces some new foliage etc. I have collected trees that even tho they came with good root systems, took several years to gain enough strength to withstand any sort of work towards bonsai (we are far rougher on our trees than nature)."

I think ur right there Matt...
...so I'm guessing that since I am using worm-juice (organic), I am 'outside' the definition of Hydroponics.


Matt.

[MattA]

Matt,

I am staying away from the whole hydro side of this conversation, unfortunately too many cannot remove one crop from the method & due to that one crop, consider it is not a valid line of inquiry or even discussion. The fact that growers of said crop are those who made hydro a viable option for many other commercial crops, not only trialling & developing better methods, nutrient solutions and media but also loads of other alternative ideas regarding growth rates & growth habits of a plant. EG "bonzabud" that has been discussed on this forum in the past(without the hullabaloo on this thread), was developed by those very same illegal(in this country) crop growers, to reduce the internode length & therefore increase bud density and production. This is just one example of the many things that have stemmed from those growers that it seems many bonsai'ers are all to willing to discount, without even looking at what can & is done by another group of plant growing nuts who are just as passionate & obsessive about their plants as we bonsai nutters are.

Matt

Ps please bear in mind that this substance has only been illegal since the end of prohibition in the US due to heavy lobbying by the tobacco industry. It back fired with the US then having to pay a major premium to get farmers growing hemp again during the war, they had no rope. Many countries around the world now recognize the countless positive medical benefits that can be obtained from using this wonderful natural product called marijuana and allow its sale & distribution.

Pup and others, please do not link this natural herb or the natural plant extracts of heroine & cocaine (all of which have extensive use in the medical world) with the artificial chemicals of ice or speed or the recreational use of heroine & cocaine . Alcohol abuse IS just as detrimental to a family as the abuse of any other substance and is a far sight more common. I guess that is ok.... its legal....lets forget how many suffer due to its abuse everyday

[craigw60]

You can push and push the growth on to your trees (and I do during the early stages of development) but the 2 qualities which really make a tree look old that is bark texture and branch ramification both come only with age, these elements take time and there is no way around that. I don't think hard growing is going to affect the lifespan of trees as bonsai at all with correct root pruning techniques you are developing a mass of feeder roots which are replaced on a regular basis this is what enables bonsai to live such long lives, also there should be no hard seasons for a bonsai if the grower is diligent with feeding and watering.
Craigw

[Pup]

Looks like I am the baddy.
I do not object to the words Marijuana or cannabis, and have said this is a good thread and should not be shut down.
What I objected to, and still do, is the fact that all the ingredients, that were posted, we were then told it was for growing cannabis .
With the person also stating he was not here for Bonsai.

So if I am that bad, as he said get over it.

Pup,

Ps I did try to resolve this at the beggining by PM.

[NBPCA]

Looks like I am the baddy.
I do not object to the words Marijuana or cannabis, and have said this is a good thread and should not be shut down.
What I objected to, and still do, is the fact that all the ingredients, that were posted, we were then told it was for growing cannabis .
With the person also stating he was not here for Bonsai.

So if I am that bad, as he said get over it.

Pup,

Ps I did try to resolve this at the beggining by PM.

here here(hear hear?) general applause anyhow! Well said.

My only dislike of the total absorption with hydroponics is that it gets away from bonsai.

However we are all happy to benefit from research done into nutrients and growing media but applied to bonsai.

Grant

[S.O.P]

Looks like I am the baddy.
I do not object to the words Marijuana or cannabis, and have said this is a good thread and should not be shut down.
What I objected to, and still do, is the fact that all the ingredients, that were posted, we were then told it was for growing cannabis .
With the person also stating he was not here for Bonsai.

So if I am that bad, as he said get over it.

Pup,

Ps I did try to resolve this at the beggining by PM.

As the thread has been adjusted to all our happiness, please don't say mistruths, Pup. You know, the "get over it" part was not addressed to you, and I started the PMs apologising to you, but only because of your standing in the community, not because I thought I wronged you.

And to Grant, you have an entire forum outside of this thread devoted to Bonsai. One can talk about true botany in here, in hydroponic form, and extrapolate it across if they so wish. Root development in plants, nutrients, PH are common to all forms of growing. You have tried multiple times to steer this thread away from hydroponics because you have a misunderstanding of what it is. We get it, it's ok.

I'd like to thank Matt for understanding that there is a difference between hydroponics and growing cannabis. And to quote Walter, again:

They have done this for decades with great success. I have adapted modern horticulture to bonsai. Only in the bonsai world does this seem revolutionary.

Hydroponics is the science side of inorganic horticulture, there is no denying it. If modern horticulture is revolutionary, hydroponics must seem like the world isn't flat.

Anyway, I added to this thread because I had a rudimentary knowledge in hydroponics, and with that, a rudimentary knowledge of what other 'passionate growers' are doing with their container mixes. I thought that someone here may be interested in knowing about it, maybe furthering their own knowledge. Sorry for the derail everyone. Actually, no I'm not. If you want to close your mind to what is a heavily researched industry due to misconceptions, it's your own loss. Bonsai, whilst different, is still botany as its core.

[63pmp]

Waltar says that; Good substrate material must: be of equal particle size

I don't necessarily agree with Waltar on this point, and here is why.

Particles of equal size tend to pack into each other quite tightly, for example;

coins 004.jpg

The black spaces between the coins represent the pore space available for air and water, which is fairly small.

When we add some particles of different size we get something like this;

coins 005.jpg

It can be seen that larger pores form because of the inability of the particles to pack tightly. It is even more important to have irregular shaped particles, which increases porosity again.

Paul

[Pup]

Both my responses were deleted before any one got to read them. I was never given an explanation. For that yes But I believe sorry does not carry attachments or caveats.

As you have shown now if this gets deleted then I will know why. The Pm sent was mine so that is why, I assumed you told me to get over it to which my responce was HTFU.

[Grant Bowie]

Waltar says that; Good substrate material must: be of equal particle size

I don't necessarily agree with Waltar on this point, and here is why.

Particles of equal size tend to pack into each other quite tightly, for example;

coins 004.jpg

The black spaces between the coins represent the pore space available for air and water, which is fairly small.

When we add some particles of different size we get something like this;

coins 005.jpg

It can be seen that larger pores form because of the inability of the particles to pack tightly. It is even more important to have irregular shaped particles, which increases porosity again.

Paul

I was wondering about that as well but maybe we have misunderstood what Walter meant.

Does he mean all particles the same size? ie all say 4mm but of any modern material.
Or all the same material in a known range of particle size? ie all diatomite 4mm to 6mm.
Or is he refering to no so called "drainage layer"? ie no larger particles on the bottom layer and becoming finer towards the middle then top of the pot.
Or a combination of the above?
Or something else.

Grant

[63pmp]

Waltar doesn't explain this, only emphasizing it must be clean of dust.

There is a science of how things pack together, but I can't remember what it is called. They have all sorts of names for how things pack together, mostly for crystal structures, but also for things in the real world.

The shape and size of particles is very important, for example, if all the particles are cubed shaped, the mix can pack down with very small pores. So variety of shapes is important when planning your mix.

Brent Walston talks about this in his blog somewhere, he talks about how people confuse sharp sand with making roots branch where in reality it actually helps with porosity.

Paul

[Walter Pall]

Grant,

there is no drainagel layer anymore. The whole substrate is drainage layer. It is only if all particles are of about the same size. It does not matter what exact material they are, can well be a mixture of various materials. Someone said in jest that a dentist could collect all pulled teeth over the years and they could be used as well functioning substrate. True indeed! Because they are all of about the same size.

Many folks get confused because what they read sounds way too simple for them. Especially if one has learnded over many years what is right and what is wrong this seems just plain wrong. Well, times have changed and common sense is also allowed in bonsai culture now.

[Mojo Moyogi]

Well, times have changed and common sense is also allowed in bonsai culture now.

Not to mention simplicity.

Thanks Walter.

Cheers,
Mojo

[nealweb]

But what about the coin pictures, I agree that the one with different sizes had better pores than the one all the same. (also rounded shapes not flat faces helps)

[NBPCA]

Grant,

there is no drainagel layer anymore. The whole substrate is drainage layer. It is only if all particles are of about the same size. It does not matter what exact material they are, can well be a mixture of various materials. Someone said in jest that a dentist could collect all pulled teeth over the years and they could be used as well functioning substrate. True indeed! Because they are all of about the same size.

Many folks get confused because what they read sounds way too simple for them. Especially if one has learnded over many years what is right and what is wrong this seems just plain wrong. Well, times have changed and common sense is also allowed in bonsai culture now.

Hi Walter,

Thanks for the clarification.

The substrate you describe and use is certainly modern and suitable for your environment. Your watering and fertilising techniques suit the substrate you use and you have access to adequate water without restrictions.

I have visited Germany many times in the past (summer and winter)and can well imagine all the bonsai doing well as you describe. I remember talking to you in Canberra and making the faux pas about calling your environment harsh (because of the winter cold).

In Australia some variables that we have to contend with are the extreme heat, lack of humidity and scarceness or restrictions on water use.(Canberra especially) . I put on tanks many years ago and so have no lack of water.
If you are having to water a bonsai two or three times a day in your northern summer we may well have to water five or six times a day in our environment. If you work and hand water this is not practical. You could use drippers, sprayers, sprinklers or flood irrigation if you choose but I don't think this practical either. You gave the anology that it is easy for your wife to water the bonsai if you are away with in effect a huge drenching spray from a fire hose being adequate.

So the main area of worry with substrate and watering in Australia is the drying out of the substrate too quickly. Various potting components are used to combat this problem and I don't see this as being archaic or old fashioned; just practical in our local environment. You advocate using local native trees as bonsai and we also need to keep our trees alive and healthy in our local native environment with the resources avaiable.

The science of substrate has also evolved and modernised in Australia and we now use some components that help retain moisture in the soil. Some are inorganic, some are organic, some are of similar size but some are gap fillers.

I am continuing to explore the use of appropriate, easilly and generally available substrate materials in Australia. I don't think there will be one size fits all as Australia ranges from Alpine through subalpine, montane, tableland, coastal temperate, desert and tropical areas.

I am also trying your recipe in our environment and will report in due course.I am still experimenting but although I now use a high percentage of modern substrate(diatomite) in my mix it is still a mix

We all admire your work and effort on the Bonsai scene and hope to see you again some time.

Many thanks for your input on the website. It is most invaluable.

Grant Bowie

[Gerard]

Particle size is an interesting point.

I am no expert but when looking for why this is recommended I came to my own theory.
Coins are two dimensional but this compaison gives us a little bit of reality.
I think that in general the air spaces will be governed by the size of the smallest particles but perhaps the most important fact is consistency. If particles are all the same size we can expect that the dampness of the soil is similar in all areas of the pot (obviously the centre of the mass will be the wettest) this would help in deciding when it is necessary to water. When particle size varies I would expect smaller particles to be washed to the bottom of the pot, the bottom of the pot would then retain much more water than the surface and increase the temptation to overwater.