AusBonsai

Rory wrote:

My father pretty much barks at the idea of keeping cats as native animals.

I have a cat, I've always had dogs but we took this one in as a stray. While I'm totally in favor of wiping out most feral animals my personal experience with this cat is probably out of the ordinary.
When we moved to the currant property (7 acre) it was a horse paddock and nothing more. There where just a few Cypresses planted along some of the boundry, the rest was open field. Much to the disaproval of my farmer neighbour, I started to plant trees everywhere. Angophoras, Eucs, Melaleuca, Callistemon, Heaps of Casuarina, Acacia, flowering natives etc etc and lots of exotics too like 5 species of oak, Cedar, Pine, Palms, Liquidambar, Cypress...the list goes on and on but you get the idea.
When we got here, the only fauna to be seen was the odd magpie and a few ibis visiting after rain. Now after only 7 years we have created enough habitat to support many perminant residents. Birds: fantails, rosellas, butcherbirds, 3 species of wren, finches, shrikes, 4 species of honeyeater,....I can't even think of them all right now. We've also had a healthy population of native swamp rats, skinks, bluetounges move in. Many of these species actually nest on the property so we have in fact increased the local wildlife numbers from what they where before we came.
So now to the cat, He is only allowed outside during daylight hours. He mainly hunts mice in the grass but I admit that he has killed a few blue wrens and probably some others, no great harm is done as ther continues to be a build up of these birds. Realistcally, he has only killed what would not have existed if a new habitat was not created!
Apologies for straying off the subject.

My father was a carpenter. He taught me most people do the right thing but many will do the wrong. A coal mine starts with a spoonful.
Arthur

Elmar wrote: Wow, I've been struggling with our local Gubberment website for years - trying to find information has always been a royal "P" in the "A"! And you just find it like that; very clever.

I used to be Bens' supervisor is another company, lets see how good a supervisor I was ... hahaha, true test now that he will have the power! He might just tell me to stick up my ... jumper!
At least I will know what he really thinks of me

I gotta deal with those bloody Gubberment ( ) websites all the time, you get used to them after a while.

Glad I could help, hahaha. Let me know how it goes. From experience, you can't out right tell a member of council what to do, you gotta politely request it.

As for the rest of the conversation, sustainable or not unless the material is collected legally you would have no right to sell it.

Also, I share a similar opinion on feral cats to my late Great Uncle that lived in the Blue Mountains. Where he trapped stray cats and handed over to the pound (not sure what happened to the repeat offenders but I think owned a slingshot).

Jarad wrote: Also, I share a similar opinion on feral cats to my late Great Uncle that lived in the Blue Mountains. Where he trapped stray cats and handed over to the pound (not sure what happened to the repeat offenders but I think owned a slingshot).

Pound or Pond??

We have owned cats, while I was the child and while I was the parent and only 2 of the 4 were really cool! Liked to snuggle, were interested in companionship ... the others were cats!

I have seen cat-runs built that allows the cats to go outside and climb and do stuff without releasing them into the 'wild' to kill anything and I am a strong advocate of those!

treeman wrote: I have a cat, I've always had dogs but we took this one in as a stray. While I'm totally in favor of wiping out most feral animals my personal experience with this cat is probably out of the ordinary.
When we moved to the currant property (7 acre) it was a horse paddock and nothing more. There where just a few Cypresses planted along some of the boundry, the rest was open field. Much to the disaproval of my farmer neighbour, I started to plant trees everywhere. Angophoras, Eucs, Melaleuca, Callistemon, Heaps of Casuarina, Acacia, flowering natives etc etc and lots of exotics too like 5 species of oak, Cedar, Pine, Palms, Liquidambar, Cypress...the list goes on and on but you get the idea.
When we got here, the only fauna to be seen was the odd magpie and a few ibis visiting after rain. Now after only 7 years we have created enough habitat to support many perminant residents. Birds: fantails, rosellas, butcherbirds, 3 species of wren, finches, shrikes, 4 species of honeyeater,....I can't even think of them all right now. We've also had a healthy population of native swamp rats, skinks, bluetounges move in. Many of these species actually nest on the property so we have in fact increased the local wildlife numbers from what they where before we came.
So now to the cat, He is only allowed outside during daylight hours. He mainly hunts mice in the grass but I admit that he has killed a few blue wrens and probably some others, no great harm is done as ther continues to be a build up of these birds. Realistcally, he has only killed what would not have existed if a new habitat was not created!
Apologies for straying off the subject.

While I commend you on what you have achieved (I did the same with my father on his property ~ 7 acres) I would encourage you to reduce the carnage of your cat with a run ... and really make a difference!

Elmar wrote:

While I commend you on what you have achieved (I did the same with my father on his property ~ 7 acres) I would encourage you to reduce the carnage of your cat with a run ... and really make a difference!

Keep in mind also the little known fact that it is the european rat which probably causes the most damage. Rats can go anywhere....small burrows, bird nests in tight foliage, under rocks for lizards, I have personally seen a rat snatch a frog floating in the middle of a creek from under water!
There are probably 1000 or maybe 10,000? rats for every feral cat. The thing is they are out of sight and out of mind. They eat anything and everything.

Yer, wish we had a genetic poison for those little critters... But then, who knows, we may end up doing ourselves in!!!


Cheers
Elmar

Cats and Rats??
Ethics aside.
The simple answer to the question originally asked by the OP is , Yes .

If any one of you walked into a Bonsai Nursery and there were amazing trunked Native trees(collected) for sale alongside ordinary stock , I highly doubt anyone would be concerned with where they came from .

treebuilder wrote:The simple answer to the question originally asked by the OP is , Yes .

If any one of you walked into a Bonsai Nursery and there were amazing trunked Native trees(collected) for sale alongside ordinary stock , I highly doubt anyone would be concerned with where they came from .

Agreed. Strongly. Rarely, if ever, would the question be asked to the Nursery owners "Were these collected legally/sustainably?"

I doubt it would even cross my mind, my only comment would be "Shut up and take my money. Please"

However, it was interesting to see people's opinions, perspectives, justifications etc..

Cheers,
Steve.

TamworthSteve wrote:
I doubt it would even cross my mind, my only comment would be "Shut up and take my money. Please"

nice once Fry!

After ecological diversity, climate change, cats and rats, I think it would help if someone could offer a detailed pseudo scientific comparative analysis of ecosystem devastation, rehabilitation etc in other areas of the world. Perhaps someone could then comment on the likely outcome of proposed terraforming on Mars and how interplanetary introduced species may impact. These are about the only topics that haven't been traversed arising from this (seemingly) confined original enquiry.

The broad ranging debate has resolved one thing - we all have plenty of spare time on our hands, that we could be spending on our trees.

If there is good quality stock available, native or exotic, collected or grown, I am interested.

Nate.bonsai wrote: If there is good quality stock available, native or exotic, collected or grown, I am interested.

A lot of this thread seems to assume that there is good quality native stock out there in the wild everywhere waiting to be collected - in my experience that is not the case. In bonsai we are more interested in stuff that has had to struggle to survive, and so has gnarly character and compact growth. I've spent a bit of time looking for native material to collect - and 99.99% of what I have seen is just not that good a material for bonsai. Long uninteresting trunks with no foliage in close or no low branching. Sure you can cut back down to a stump and regrow everything, but unless your prepared to work it for 20+yrs you just get a tree that looks like a stump with branches grown on it! In that same amount of time it takes to grow out a stump into a convincing tree, I could probably have grown one from scratch from young nursery stock in my back yard with much better form and less faults.

Most of the more promising native material I have seen is in locations where, as mentioned, they naturally have to struggle more to survive. These are in either of two locations.

The first being delicate and harsh natural environments. But the same factors that cause this material to build the character we are attracted to, is also the reason should not be collecting it. This stuff is lucky to have grown where it is, may have taken 100's of years to get to where it is and possibly wont come back if removed.

The other is urban situations(car parks, road verges etc.). Its these 'urban tortured' plants that I find the most promising and the most abundantly suitable to bonsai! Years of bad council prune jobs, collisions with shopping trolleys, skateboards, women drivers, drunk teenagers and litres of dog urine have done the same job that in nature the extreme cold, violent winds and marsupial attack would have done.

So I say leave the uninteresting crap in the bush and knock off that tree in your supermarket carpark!

I'm not for or against wild collecting - just saying there isn't that much out there to get excited about!

Nate.bonsai wrote:

Perhaps someone could then comment on the likely outcome of proposed terraforming on Mars and how interplanetary introduced species may impact.

Happy to!

Back in the 70's when I was growing ''other kinds'' of plants, I met someone from Mars who told me that when they where attacked by the evil space cats from Mercury, there was complete devistation because they disrupted the whole plantary balance by eating all the rare purple rats which kept the sand octopi (octopuses?) in check. This is the reason Mars was abandoned after being turned into a barren desert by the strangeoids from Zimzo 5.

JaseH wrote: I'm not for or against wild collecting - just saying there isn't that much out there to get excited about!

Are you serious?

I mean this in the nicest possible sense, but I think you either need to get out more, or get out from where you are.

JasH - lolololololol that is the funniest and most succinct answer and just about spot on to how I feel!


Cheers
EZ

treeman wrote:

Nate.bonsai wrote:

Perhaps someone could then comment on the likely outcome of proposed terraforming on Mars and how interplanetary introduced species may impact.

Happy to!

Back in the 70's when I was growing ''other kinds'' of plants, I met someone from Mars who told me that when they where attacked by the evil space cats from Mercury, there was complete devistation because they disrupted the whole plantary balance by eating all the rare purple rats which kept the sand octopi (octopuses?) in check. This is the reason Mars was abandoned after being turned into a barren desert by the strangeoids from Zimzo 5.

this 's for you, Mike.

I'll just pour myself another while I'm at it too.