AusBonsai

The intense twists and turns of the trunk in this "dragon tree", and the way the branches radiate out that energy all make great art, whatever you call it. Mike, your virt turns it into something quite ordinary. Your problem seems to be that it doesn't look like "bonsai". That's like slagging off at Picasso because he doesn't look like Renoir. If you don't "get it", it's not a problem for the tree, but you might like to read a couple of Quinquan Zhao's books that discuss what they're on about. There's a lot in Penjing that will work well with our natives, and a lot of formalised "proper bonsai" styling that doesn't. We need to learn.

Gavin

GavinG wrote:The intense twists and turns of the trunk in this "dragon tree", and the way the branches radiate out that energy all make great art, whatever you call it. Mike, your virt turns it into something quite ordinary. Your problem seems to be that it doesn't look like "bonsai". That's like slagging off at Picasso because he doesn't look like Renoir. If you don't "get it", it's not a problem for the tree, but you might like to read a couple of Quinquan Zhao's books that discuss what they're on about. There's a lot in Penjing that will work well with our natives, and a lot of formalised "proper bonsai" styling that doesn't. We need to learn.

Gavin

Gavin.

Whether it's ''great art'' or not I'll let others decide. My problem is not that it doesn't look like a bonsai, it's that it doesn't look like a tree. If I want a dragon, I'll carve it out of wood. This culture of trying to make trees look like animals etc I find unsophisticated, anti-nature, the opposite of wabi sabi, repulsive, primitive, kitsch. I can't say enough negative things about it from my point of view. The last thing I would want to do is acquaint myself further with something I find extremely distasteful and always have.
Basically, If a potted plant does not look like what it is I'm not interested. Your Picasso argument is not really accurate. Both Renoir and Picasso gave their own interpretations of a human face (for example). They did not try to make a face look like a chair. If however we came across a natural tree which we happened to find some anthropomorphic characteristics in, that could be a charming and interesting experience. Artificially trying to create it is provincial superstitious nonsence and of manufactured value. No better than garden gnomes. Westerners trying to emulate it is even worse.

I live in a forest I'm surrounded by thousand and thousands of trees . The tree that stands out in a forest is not the tree that has a classic shape ,its the contorted , or smashed by the elements or has characteristics that remind us of other things i.e. animals ,elves and gnomes these are the special trees . So I don't feel the need to make a tree look like a tree .
Cheers Sno

Mike: thank you for your considered opinions, which I always value.

This tree is inspired by/infused with the spirit of the mythical dragon of Taoist philosophy, with centuries of poetry, ethics and aesthetics behind it. When you reduce it to a tacky tourist-shop nic-nac or a topiary chicken, you do show what the problem is - you just don’t get what it means. You sound balanced and fair when you say “whether it’s “great art “ or not I’ll let others decide” but then follow it up with an astonishing stream of abuse that declares you are totally unwilling to look any further. I’ve always enjoyed the clarity and strength of your views, but here, as you’ve said, you just don’t get it. It may help to learn some stuff before you go apoplectic again.

As Leigh has said (somewhere) the Chinese rate a bonsai that is just a small-scale tree very low - it’s “mere imitation”. They will praise more a tree that is startlingly or ravishingly artistic, like a true original painting, that has powerful poetic meaning, and anchors itself in philosophy - how Life Works - tying together Heaven and Earth, Man and Nature, Physical and Spiritual, Artistic and Mechanical.

We’re a prosaic lot here - mention Philosophy or Spirit or even Artistic and most of us, me included run screaming for the doors. I don’t have to believe in The Dao, Tigers/Dragons/Pearls, Confucian Analects and so on, but if I have some idea about the 3000 year load of culture that Penjing reflects, it helps to understand it. If you aren’t prepared to make the effort, don’t judge it by shouting abuse from the door of the tourist shop.

Incidentally Mike, I’m interested in your views that “wabi-wabi” is virtually dead in Japanese bonsai. The sight of rows of po-faced Japanese billionaires solemnly bidding millions of dollars to own The Most Perfectly Modest and Humble tea bowl for the tea ceremony says it all for me.

For me, harmony, modesty, age and perfect grace would start the list off. Anything where you admire the technique is a failure.

Thanks for your time,

Gavin

Hmmm....A living dragon made of wood versus a dragon carved out of wood - I know which one I'd prefer to train.

As someone who gave him the tree from which pretty much all his Chinese Elms were derived I have been following this thread with some amusement. Hong produced a number of exceptional bonsai/penjing, but as most of the trees were from root cuttings many were never going to make attractive trees, so he quickly shaped them up into something presentable and then moved them on. When he passed away I assisted the family in preparing his trees for sale. Most of the really good ones did not reach the Sale Tables and were snapped up beforehand. Some of the trees appearing in this thread are frankly very poor and were prepared for a quick sale. The controversial 'Dragon' tree is definitely not planted at its original angle, and appears to have 'risen up' at the end. I would also like to make the point that Hong used plenty of wiring in the initial shaping of the trunks and major branches. Once they were in place, cut and grow was his main shaping method. He was very innovative in the techniques he used to grow his trees. Some techniques worked better than others.

I've never 'got' penjing and I don't think I ever will.
I do love art, but I'm firmly seated on mikes side of the fence as to what I prefer. Though I can appreciate that many people love it, and I'm glad it brings those people great happiness. Just as much as my styled trees bring me great happiness.

But I completely understand what Gavin is saying, and I have a lot of respect for both mike and Gavin who would often share many views as I do.

My own personal feelings are that I can't get my head around shaping trees to look like 'artistic representations of something'. I do understand this is very much subjective and for that reason I will definitely admire the effort gone into these. At the end of the day, it is great to read so many ideas on it though and adds to the enjoyment of styling small trees as a whole.


That is a very nice pot that little pink/white one Grant.

Hi Everyone

I found an old picture of the Dragon in the book published about Hong Lin's penjing. I am not sure when the photo was taken, it does not have a photo credit, however some of the other pictures state a year of 2011, so it could be about the same time.

2011? 2017

"

GavinG"

This tree is inspired by/infused with the spirit of the mythical dragon of Taoist philosophy, with centuries of poetry, ethics and aesthetics behind it. When you reduce it to a tacky tourist-shop nic-nac or a topiary chicken, you do show what the problem is - you just don’t get what it means.

I do understand that side of things. I know -as much as I want to know -about the age old tradition, mythology, representation, significance etc behind these Chinese customs. Just as much as any old or modern religion. Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism along with Toaism all have their good points but also carry a lot of baggage with them. Namely, spirituality. That is what I object to most. Any artefact that seeks to represent that, I like to avoid. Be it dragons or God. Sure I can be ''entertained'' by them but I I try to avoid being influenced by them. In other words I'm certainly no Taoist schlolar, but I know just enough about most traditional religious practices and beliefs to realise they are usually human constructs and can all lead to distorted views and elevated opinions of ourselves. Look where that has placed us so far! Humans are a gullible lot. We too easily accept the word of others without questioning. In essence, there is no difference between a wide eyed Chinese child being told the significance of the dragon in Chinese mythology and a wide eyed American being told the importance of the latest self help book by Oprah Winfrey. In that respect I can only place the slightest of value on these representational penjing creations.
Of course bonsai is also representational but the difference is that in it's purest form, it seeks to represent truth. The fact that is often does not is beside the point.

You sound balanced and fair when you say “whether it’s “great art “ or not I’ll let others decide” but then follow it up with an astonishing stream of abuse that declares you are totally unwilling to look any further. I’ve always enjoyed the clarity and strength of your views, but here, as you’ve said, you just don’t get it. It may help to learn some stuff before you go apoplectic again.

What I meant by that was that everyone is free to decide the value of things for themselves but everyone is also free to express that personal opinion. BTW I think it's a slight misrepresentation to use the word apoplectic because I used a few descriptive words to illustrate a point. But I understand that that can be a problem with forums and the written word! I bare no ill will or have anger towards people who disagree.
Have you ever seen bullshit man?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H23Dsi--o4s

As Leigh has said (somewhere) the Chinese rate a bonsai that is just a small-scale tree very low - it’s “mere imitation”. They will praise more a tree that is startlingly or ravishingly artistic, like a true original painting, that has powerful poetic meaning, and anchors itself in philosophy - how Life Works - tying together Heaven and Earth, Man and Nature, Physical and Spiritual, Artistic and Mechanical.

The practice of bonsai seek to do the same thing. That is - try to convey how life works but in a more direct way. Without the need to encumber yourself with symbolism.

We’re a prosaic lot here - mention Philosophy or Spirit or even Artistic and most of us, me included run screaming for the doors. I don’t have to believe in The Dao, Tigers/Dragons/Pearls, Confucian Analects and so on, but if I have some idea about the 3000 year load of culture that Penjing reflects, it helps to understand it. If you aren’t prepared to make the effort, don’t judge it by shouting abuse from the door of the tourist shop.

Well I not only do not want to make the effort to understand it more deeply, I feel there is no need to. In other words I won't derive any more benefit from it. If fact it will most likely repel me even further.

Incidentally Mike, I’m interested in your views that “wabi-wabi” is virtually dead in Japanese bonsai. The sight of rows of po-faced Japanese billionaires solemnly bidding millions of dollars to own The Most Perfectly Modest and Humble tea bowl for the tea ceremony says it all for me.

That is a vast subject but suffice it to say it seems to me that bonsai has little place in appreciation of wabi sabi. I'm still mulling that one over.......

For me, harmony, modesty, age and perfect grace would start the list off. Anything where you admire the technique is a failure.

I think you are right! So that would exclude 99% of bonsai if not all of them right there.

Sno wrote:I live in a forest I'm surrounded by thousand and thousands of trees . The tree that stands out in a forest is not the tree that has a classic shape ,its the contorted , or smashed by the elements or has characteristics that remind us of other things i.e. animals ,elves and gnomes these are the special trees . So I don't feel the need to make a tree look like a tree .
Cheers Sno

The difference Sno, is that they are still trees. Real natural trees. Bonsai are not real natural trees. If you seek to make a bonsai not look like a ''tree'' but more like one of those special ones you mention, you are still trying to make it look like a real tree. If you do penjing, (sometimes) you are not. But good bonsai is more than that. It's more than just trees. It should suggest an entire landscape. That's the hard part. the ''art'' part of bonsai.

PEnjing is ugly as

I don't know what your issue is charliegreen but it seems to be quite difficult for you to manage,

Why don't you take a hike mate.....

Hi Treeman I admire your passion . What I think your saying is that penjing is a bit to styalized for your tastes .
Have you noticed your current avatar takes on characteristics that are like an old woman ,with a walking stick ,carrying a heavy burden on a long journey ? subconsciously you are drawn to the familiar . Yes it is an image of a real tree but If you took away the 'walking stick ' or the hunched over look or 'the bundle on her back it would be a lesser image . If you cleaned it up a bit but left those elements it would lose some of its wild look but it would still have that feeling that you are subconsciously drawn to . To me this is penjing .

After a little pruning. I have posted the other 2 pics again for comparison.

Leigh
I for one ain't usually big on Penjing but after that prune I can clearly see the dragon some others were talking about . I see multiple feet snaking along its torso. The more I look at it the more I actually like it... strange as I thought I never would