AusBonsai

Bretts,

Thanks for the link to the vid. I hadn't seen it before, Graeme explains it in understandable lingo. A must see for everyone.

Cheers

I do like reading what these guys have to say.

Here is the conclusion from What we Gain when we allow Plants to Protect Themselves.
When we utilise a chemical to control a pest, the rich suite of biological compounds that the plant would have naturally synthesised, in order to protect itself, will not be produced. As a result the flavour, nutritional and medicinal qualities of the plant will be reduced. You are, in essence, restricting the full expression of the plant’s potential. If Chaboussou is correct then the chemical solution is also magnifying the problem. There is no doubt that the problem is growing. Chaboussou shows how the massive new problems associated with unmanageable viral diseases is also linked to chemical-induced imbalance. Since 1945 we have increased chemical usage, on a world scale, every year without exception, and yet every year total pest pressure has grown. This is the definition of unsustainability and we must address this issue. Inducing systemic resistance, addressing trace mineral shortages and improving nitrogen management can all help to reduce chemicals and achieve quality without sacrificing yield.

BoNZai wrote:...Not sure where I got this from but I always think about it during a lightning storm Could be an old wives tale...

It's called Atmospheric nitrogen fixation, just type it into Google, there's a heap of reading.

Here's a quick simple link: http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultran ... Cycle.html

link wrote:The enormous energy of lightning breaks nitrogen molecules and enables their atoms to combine with oxygen in the air forming nitrogen oxides. These dissolve in rain, forming nitrates, that are carried to the earth.

Atmospheric nitrogen fixation probably contributes some 5– 8% of the total nitrogen fixed.

That's the stuff Bretts,

Also have a look on the web for Arden Andersen's work. I have attended 2 of his soil and agronomy courses. Intensive but well worth attending if he does a course in your area.
See If you can get a copy of his book 'Science in Agriculture'. fantastic read!

I have met an Ozzy guy on his courses that is involved in organising courses in Oz for Arden. His name is David von Pein and is based in Toowoomba, Qld.
http://www.themeterman.com.au

Cheers

BoNZai

Thats intresting if you sign up for the free newsletter you get a free copy of an ebook that has an interview with Arden Andersen

http://www.nutri-tech.com.au/blog/?p=936

Wow, just downloaded the ebook!
So much to read, so little time. Maybe it's time 4 a speed reading course

BoNZai

shibui wrote:Not sure where the idea came from but I thought that lightning changes atmospheric nitrogen gas N2 into other forms which may be soluble. I have noticed that rain makes plants grow far more quickly and greener than any amount of water from another source - dam, well, tap, etc,

Thanks guys, I have looked around and found some journals on this -
Apparently, the lightning heats the air (very localised) to a temperature capable of breaking the triple-bond in N2, upon this breaking, the single N molecules react with O2 making 2NO (a poisonous gas). This gas is dissolved in rainwater and makes its way into the soil as nitrous acid. This acid is reactive and can produce other chemical reactions.

So while the lightning is involved in the nitrogen cycle, I couldn't find any info on plants actually absorbing gaseous nitrogen.
While boring for some, I find this interesting and thought others might like to know a little more detail on this topic.
Cheers

Looks like each grower has his own watering scheme - and it's usually a matter of convenience rather than biology. I would like to point out these considerations for watering:
Pines & junipers - require less water than most other species. They like full sun and can get very dry without suffering much.
Most deciduous trees - need lots of water, especially if they stand in full sun. Once they have leafed out, their leaf transpiration is enormous. That's why I prefer to keep my deciduous trees in partial shade. Watering late in the day encourages the formation of mold, so I water until mid-afternoon to allow the leaves to dry before sundown.
Other considerations - porosity of one's soil mix; depth of pot; daily temperature; wind velocity, season of the year (degree of sun above the horizon).
When in doubt, stick a chopstick into the soil, then run it across the back of your hand. If it's damp, don't water.

Found this

Nitrogen: From the Air to the Plants

Nitrogen is often referred to as a primary limiting nutrient in plant growth. Simply put, when nitrogen is not available plants stop growing. Although lack of nitrogen is often viewed as a problem, nature has an immense reserve of nitrogen everywhere plants grow--in the air. Air consists of approximately 80% nitrogen gas (N2), representing about 6400 kg of N above every hectare of land. However, N2 is a stable gas, normally unavailable to plants. Nitrogen fixation, a process by which certain plants "fix" or gather atmospheric N2 and make it biologically available, is an underlying pattern in nature.

http://www.agroforestry.net/pubs/NFTs.html
Now it seems that there is only a selection of trees and plants that can do this with Nodules on the roots and a relationship with specific microorganisms.
It does show that trees are able to absorb from the atmosphere though. N2 must be fixed to be used as these specific trees and plants do but I bet there are other elements in the air or rain that can be used by trees and plants.

These plants are called legumes. They have a symbiotic relationship with special nitrogen fixing bacteria. The bacteria are in the nodules attached to roots. They will benefit the plant in low nitrogen soils, however, if enough plant available N is present in the soil, then the plant will use that.

Lightning would produce the bulk of the worlds nitrogen fertilizer. Trees in a forest are very good at scavaging plant nutrients. A typical forest recycles 99.99% of all nutrients. In the amazon rain forest all the nutrients are in the top 10cm of soil, which is why after it is cleared and burnt it can only be cropped for 2 years. Modern agriculture mines nutrients from soils and removes it in the form of food, this is why fertilizer has to be added regularly to maintain production rates.

Paul

This article shows a list of trees that are Nitrogen Fixing Trees.
http://cstaf.ifas.ufl.edu/nftguide.pdf
Not sure which ones here are classed as legumes but I am pretty sure Alder is not!

Alders benefit other plants growing near them by taking nitrogen out of the air and depositing it into the soil in usable form;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alder
The main thing I get from this is that it shows trees are able to absorb elements from the atmosphere.
Only some are able to convert N2 into a usable form but I figure there is lots of other good stuff in the rain that plants can absorb and that is why our bonsai look extra healthy after rain.

You should know by now Brett that there is rarely anything black and white in the bonsai world.

From wikipedia

Although by far the majority of nitrogen-fixing plants are in the legume family Fabaceae, there are a few non-leguminous plants that can also fix nitrogen. These plants, referred to as "actinorhizal plants", consist of 22 genera of woody shrubs or trees scattered in 8 plant families. The ability to fix nitrogen is not universally present in these families. For instance, of 122 genera in the Rosaceae, only 4 genera are capable of fixing nitrogen.

Plants that contribute to nitrogen fixation include the legume family – Fabaceae – with taxa such as clover, soybeans, alfalfa, lupines and peanuts. They contain symbiotic bacteria called Rhizobia within nodules in their root systems, producing nitrogen compounds that help the plant to grow and compete with other plants. When the plant dies, the fixed nitrogen is released, making it available to other plants and this helps to fertilize the soil[1][3] The great majority of legumes have this association, but a few genera (e.g., Styphnolobium) do not. In many traditional and organic farming practices, fields are rotated through various types of crops, which usually includes one consisting mainly or entirely of clover or buckwheat (family Polygonaceae), which were often referred to as "green manure."

You lost me a bit in the last post Paul and now I am totally lost. I am not sure what point you are trying to make. I thought pretty well all the information you have posted was pretty much in the article I linked?

I try to have a point to my posts, but sometimes they are elusive and hard to track down. English is only my first language, I'll get it one day.

Plants themselves are unable to take nitrogen (N2) from the air. A few trees have a symbiotic relationship with nitrogen fixing micro-organisms. The majority of plants with this symbiotic relationship are legumes.

Paul

Ah ok..

Yes it is the nitrogen fixing micro-organisms that change the N2 into a usable form. This was stated in the artilcle I linked and I also stated it when linking the article? So I was unsure why you where brining it up. But the tree or legume does actually take the N2 from the air and delivers it to the microorganisms in the soil.
Hench my point that trees are able to absorb stuff from the air.

Alders benefit other plants growing near them by taking nitrogen out of the air