Thoughts on Collected Australian native material.

[treeman]

The fact there are many bushfires and that fires are expected to increase in some areas is a reason in itself a reason not to put more impact on some places

As I said, removal of a few hundred specimens of a common species from where there are countless others would not have an impact which could be at all measured. Back burning on the other hand, whether necessary or not could be. I don't see the point above as very relevant.

. Many regional ecosystems are already well below 30% which is the generally accepted minimum to be retained if that ecosystem is to be maintained. From memory the New England Tableland was down to about 11% ten years ago and thats not a unique situation. Some ecosystems like wallum have already been disproportionately creamed on a regional scale so creating greater impact is just not the right thing to do especially when you consider species that are dependant on a particular.ecosystem or component of a said ecosystem.

No argument from me here. Obviously collecting from such areas should not be allowed. But again, not what I'm talking about.

It's worth just considering how many places in Australia have been degraded because we don't understand fully a threatening process. Yamadori collecting could become what is called a threatening process once a market is established and it would be naive to think everything everywhere would be dandy over time

.

Impossible if material taken was not endagered. There just aren't that many bonsai growers.

I know that the amount of bushrock collecting for landscaping has heavily impacted various fauna species near Sydney.

Irrelevant to this argument.

If they weren't protected many Waratah surviving now wouldn't be there because of the previous popularity of wildflower collecting in the 1800 &1900's.....same thing

Not the same thing and also irrelevant.
I'm not advocating collecting rare, threatened, endagered species.

[Arthur Pentacost]

Perhaps there could be more people collecting material in WA then are in your bonsai community. Collecting (outside of developments and gardens) should not be encouraged. I'm not sure what facts you may be referring too. It is great to hear your bonsai club is doing the right thing however there are always cowboys.

Arthur

[Ryceman3]

I know that the amount of bushrock collecting for landscaping has heavily impacted various fauna species near Sydney.

Irrelevant to this argument.

I had a feeling this thread would end up down the garden path.

If the impact of collecting rocks having a detrimental effect on fauna species is irrelevant, I spose collecting flora would be less invasive...
I don't advocate taking trees/plants/rocks/animals/anything from land that is NOT private/up for demolition/lawfully permitted. The argument that bonsai is negligible in the scheme of things so has no impact is a farcical bit of crap that you must tell yourself so you feel better... honestly, anybody who has any ounce of knowledge in relation to ecology, horticulture and how removing an entity from an environment (common or not) effects the ecosystem from where it comes from is kidding themselves if they feel they can take what they want for "bonsai purposes" because we don't have a big footprint given we are not mainstream. Tell that to Japan and the impact of yamadori there.
I want to make it clear... Taking from private property with permission and from public land where demolition is forecast and permission is given is a different thing - and I say why not. But that is it. Leave public natural land alone. National parks need to be protected from those who think just taking a bit here and there for personal use is fair play, and those who think that isn't an issue might wanna take a second look.

I love native bonsai , I have more of these in training than any other. But I don't endorse yamadori that are taken from areas that are not private or council approved collection is granted given the land will be developed.

Anyway, there is my rant, I'm sure many will disagree - so I look forward to the scientific evidence suggesting that non-controlled collection of yamadori from wherever you please is beneficial to the environment ... or not ...

[Reece]

Has anyone in this thread or this forum ever suggested taking something from a public place without permission?

I'm pretty sure the answer is NO.

People are carrying on like someone said they are going to rip out a rare plant from the Sydney Botanic gardens with a bob cat. Cool down everyone...

So back to Hughes orginal question. Would people be interested in collected native material from SUSSTAINABLE areas?

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[Reece]

Deleted

[Josh]

I was just up the bush last week at one of my favourite locations. We camp there each year in winter. I have a secret spot I go to for time out. It's a rock about 50mtrs above the river on a bend. It sits out proud about the river. It is covered in miss and about 20 perfect yamadoori natives. I love sitting beside them over looking the river. They are stunted because they grow on a rock. They are twisted and gnarly because they are exposed and the wind rios down the valley.
This year I was devastated to find only 7 of the 20 odd trees left alive but struggling. The rest are totally dead. The moss is all but gone, mostly dead. Change in weather? Lack of water? Who knows.
I thought "I could justify taking these trees by saying I'm saving them". I sat and admired the complexity of the trees that were dead and bare. Looked at will of the remaining trees to live even though they were loosing the battle.
I thought these trees need to stay here even if it means they will die. It's nature and its life.

image.jpg

As sad as it was to see this spot dieing off I still couldn't justify taking plants. I often collect from people's yards, demolitions and renovations. Plenty of great stock available that is destined for the scrap heap.

Josh.

[fossil finder]

I never said the sentence ' As I said, removal of a few hundred specmens of a common species..........' Thats a mis quote and not my words.
So then maybe this conversations starting point should be narrowed down to what are the main speces lkely to be impacted? Again B. serrata and expected Sydney population increase in next 20 years (more bonsai artists) My point is not so much that there will be zillions of ecosystems denuded in the next 5 years, but rather, how do we enthusiasts that have in mind the philosophical/ethical aspects of bonsai deal with the crafts history/legacy given that respect of nature is such an important component.

[fossil finder]

That's not the original question Reece

[Biofusion]

Jeez Hugh look what you've started lol.

[Reece]

That's not the original question Reece

True, but Hugh has posted multiple times and explained how it always has to be sustainable.

I wasn't targeting you either Fossil. I apologise if it seemed that way....

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[treeman]

I had a feeling this thread would end up down the garden path.

And you're the one leading us there.

If the impact of collecting rocks having a detrimental effect on fauna species is irrelevant, I spose collecting flora would be less invasive...

Is it that difficult to look at things rationally ''crikey!''
The wholesale taking of bush rocks has been going on for many years for the WHOLESALE landscaping industry to bulid garden walls, roads, paths, houses etc. Millions of tons where taken. It is very obvious and should go without saying that it would have an impact on the ecology of the areas from which it was removed.
Completely irrelevant to this subject.

. The argument that bonsai is negligible in the scheme of things so has no impact is a farcical bit of crap that you must tell yourself so you feel better

Are you arguing for the sake of it or do you actually have a point? So far you have not demonstrated any evidence at all to back up what you are saying.

... honestly, anybody who has any ounce of knowledge in relation to ecology, horticulture and how removing an entity from an environment (common or not) effects the ecosystem from where it comes from is kidding themselves if they feel they can take what they want for "bonsai purposes" because we don't have a big footprint given we are not mainstream. Tell that to Japan and the impact of yamadori there.

What nonsense. Clearing enough land for one cow would have more of an impact on the ecology than taking a few native trees to put into pots. Where is your sense of perspective?

I love native bonsai , I have more of these in training than any other. But I don't endorse yamadori that are taken from areas that are not private or council approved collection is granted given the land will be developed.

I have no trouble with it as long as the numbers are very low (which they would be because not many people would ever be interesed) and the material is abundent.

Anyway, there is my rant, I'm sure many will disagree - so I look forward to the scientific evidence suggesting that non-controlled collection of yamadori from wherever you please is beneficial to the environment ... or not ...

Who is suggesting that collection of material is beneficial? And who is suggesting non-controlled collection? What is being rationally suggested is that it would make no difference if done with due consideration. Just like it would make no difference to global warming if Australia was suddenly devoid of people.

By the way, I have never collected anything from anywhere, so I'm not trying to justify personal actions.

[fossil finder]

No worries mate. I think this is a healthy debate to have but complicated by our different experiences, interests and locations. I have a particular interest in environmental impact assessment and fauna so environmental considerations are always at the root of my personal decision making tree (pardon pun) when it comes to recovering plants. Taking a small footprint approach works for me and definitely enhances my bonsai experience but others might find this petty. Bonsai enthusiasts have every right to interprete bonsai how they wish and enjoy their pastime. It's a personal thing

[kcpoole]

Another aspect that has not come up is the purpose growing of Native trees rather than collection.
Most of our natives are fast growers and we can grow them in only a few years with better features and interest hopefully than many collected trees.

In the wild they are usually long and spindly with little features and interest, and if collected like that usually will take a long time to cut back and grow something of interest.
Usually the trees that are grown in paddocks and farms that get eaten and trodden on by livestock. are the ones with features desirable for bonsai and they are legally collectible ( with permission )anyway.

I had to lift 2 Casuarina ( cunninghamiana) this week to make room in my qarden. These were grown from seed and then spent 5 years in the ground.
They were lifted last time 3 years ago and root pruned, with wining and trunk chopping along the way. Plants in my garden do not get molly coddled, so the growth could be faster if watered, fertilised and cared for more often.

I have Callistimon and Baekea ( in my garden as well) for digging up in a few more years.

Ken

[Rory]

The word seems to be used often here. I too, find it Crikely interesting (new one) that this thread has gone to this. Being the son of a Professor of Biology, I would have to say that my father as well, is a staunch believer in climate change. If the 'greens' here - and I'm not knocking your green views as I personally vote Green - are somehow suggesting that collecting native material from private land / land subject to clearing / cattle country / yadda yadda yadda is somehow going to upset the balance of the ecosystem, I would suggest you look at the facts.

Introduced fauna are the number 1 reason for the demise of native animals in Australia. Yes, land clearing is a massive problem, but cane toads and cats are pretty much numero uno on the 'shoot' list.
Cattle are another disaster to the ecosystem alone.

I have to say that I agree completely with Treeman and others in that taking native material from approved areas is never going to amount to anything of a problem when you consider the rate at which we as humans are polluting and destroying the ecosystems simply due to our lifestyles. How many on here, have ever travelled into the outback and seen the effects of land erosion, strip mining, landfill, deforestation, and the list goes on. Now, before I am sizzled for suggesting that taking trees is somehow 'not as bad as man made problems like this', I am saying that this would be in the same category of controlled farming, similar to attempts made on kangaroos and crocodiles etc. This is a god send for the native animals in Australia to farm them. Hell, we need Skippy burgers at McDonalds, that would do more for the natural ecosystem of Australia than anything. Dump the cows, and cook the roos.

My father pretty much barks at the idea of keeping cats as native animals. Instead, we need to change the mentality of our prehistoric politicians and encourage the use of native animals as pets. We had a plethora of them growing up, and they were beautiful. Why do we continue to not allow our own beautiful species of fauna as a no-go for pets. If your pet wallaby escapes and roams out into the bush, it will have .... wait for it... 0 negative effects on the native ecosystem. Now, release your feline, and for every feline out there that escapes it kills statistically about 15 native animals a DAY! Thats right, a DAY! Now, that includes BIRDS! Now how do native flora reproduce... among other things, birds eating their seeds, and ....oh wait, thats right, the birds are being killed because Tom escaped from Jerry. So now the immediate effect of that decline in numbers is staggering for the rest of the ecosystem in exponential growth.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-11-13/g ... ck/5858282

As Sinead O'Connor once said... 'fight the real problem!'.... climate change and introduced feral species....Not a handful of trees taken from approved areas. National parks and flora in there, will always be protected for good reason, no-one is suggesting we start an easter egg hunt in there, but you need to put this argument into perspective, as Treeman and others point out.

*I'll just step off this soap box now*

[Elmar]

Hah, Well said!
I grew up shooting rabbits and roof-rabbits as a young lad, then we got chastised and were invited to go too-shooting... Go figure!

Wild pig hunting is hell of a lot of fun (if you are any good with a rifle! Otherwise you'd better be a good tree climber)...
All this so the neighbour could grow wheat for his cattle...

I guess being young and ignorant is no longer an excuse...

I have no issue of a 'Skilled' arborist (Bonsai or otherwise) rescues a tree(s) from live stock/ clearing/ developing areas but would prefer the 'Cloning' by air layering in the wild - ALL with permission! Otherwise stick to growing by seeds as mentioned above. I mean really, how hard is it to dig a hole in the ground to fast-track the growth?!?

Opinions are just like Navel-lint. Everyone has a different colour!

Peace out

Cheers
EZ