AusBonsai

Nice one Ash there seems like alot of knowledge that went into that ballad

Bretts wrote: Nice one Ash there seems like alot of knowledge that went into that ballad

alot of knowledge yes, trying to understand it...
if i get this striaght which i probably wont, is that the soil needs moisture during the day, but it also needs moisture during the night, as it loses water all the time, yet more so through the day? but it also breathes at night which relases O2 etc. etc.

so for those that need it put into laymans terms ash, could you help us out??? i was with ya until ya started singing


jamie

I might be reading in favour of my watering habits but what I did understand had me thinking the tree uses more water during the day, that one I think is simple. And Uses more oxegen through the night so wetter during the day moistish during the night.
I think there is some in there how even though the tree shuts down in the heat it still uses alot of water?

Although I don't know some of these words here.

Good soil is hypotonic (more water less solutes)
Good root tip cells are hypertonic (less water more solutes)
Water diffuses from a hypotonic to a hypertonic solution
This happens day and night
Plants do not have a pump
Their water is drawn from roots to shoots by capillarity
Capillarity is greatest when plants are loosing water from shoots
This happens day and night

I guess ash is getting at that the salt content of the tree must be higher than the substrate to suck up the water. If it is the other way around the substrate sucks water from the tree. That spells death.
It's a very cool bunch of what seem to be valid facts

so he is talking about reverse osmosis? that is where the tree pushes out moisture into the soil to balance the nutrient levels, that is one reason why feeding to highly isnt a reccomended thing as it can lead to this and kill the tree.

having a higher nutrient level in the tree isnt a problem as the tree can use this as energy but when it is over fertilized for to long a time reverse osmosis will occur.
thats my understanding anyways.

if you think you have over fed your tree, using the plunge (water in a bucket or container, enough to cover the pot and allow it to take in as much water as possible then when removed it is supposed to filter out the over fertilized nutrients and replace with extra moisture for the tree) watering technique can help this.


jamie

That's just half a verse Jamie I was just giving an example of what my interpretation was even though I have never heard a couple of the words before??

I am sure a google search on any of the words we don't know would be some interesting research
I might come back to this when I am in the mood

My understanding of reverse Osmosis is more instant. Add too much fert and you can see the tree shrivel before your Eyes. I had it happen on a little birch once I believe.

im not sure of how instant reverse osmosis is, i have never had the problem, and i have been one to feed very heavily in certain situations, sometimes up to 3 times the recommended amount and never had a tree shrivel before me? maybe it had something to do with how much water it was taking in and energy it was using up here in these growing conditions.

i now only use the recommended ratios sometimes a little less, occasionally a little more but not like i did when i didnt know any better

jamie

Fertiliser is basicly Salt. If you add too much Fertiliser the salt in the soil sucks the water out of the tree it can be almost instant.
That is my understanding .

Morning is best for me and afternoonsee's if it is a stinker. Fertiliser is evening times twice a week with fish emulsion or miricle stuff with a dash of seasol tonic for good measure, makes a nice night cap.

Bretts wrote:Fertiliser is basicly Salt. If you add too much Fertiliser the salt in the soil sucks the water out of the tree it can be almost instant.
That is my understanding .

righto! got ya now mate that i can understand, i agree there that the salts as fert. will suck out moisture for sure, now would that be for a liquid feed too or just ya slow release, just curious because i have seen some nurseries with crazy amounts of slow release on top of there soils ?


jamie

The time it happened to me was with Dynamic lifter. It was text book reverse osmosis. Within a couple of hours the tree was witherd and half the trunk was dead. I guess the same can happen with liquid feed.
The strange thing is that I don't think it was much more dynamic lifter than I have put on these day's with no issue?

Fly makes a gravel and dynamic lifter potting medium

It may have had other issues, I did trunk chop it twice in one year as it was growing so fast. Don't know but adding the Dynamic lifter definitely affected it in a very bad way in a very short time.

You could experiment with undiluted fert if you are curious

I too often mix the fert just under the recomended amount just to be safe but apparently it is a big jump in the dilution before it causes harm.

if i was gonna do an experiment like that it would be with a seedling of no worth in money (under $5) which would probly be smashed by 2 times the reccommended dosage anyways. i think i will pass on that experiment

as for the dilution ratios though it would be interesting to see how far, or hear how far people have gone before it has had ill effects on the trees themselves??? now that might be an experiment worth trying
but i still think it would alter in ways of such to different states and sub climates etc. the only way to know would be to do a nation wide experiment on how this would react, we would have some super strong trees in a quick time or some reasonable sizes in that time or death, as there would need to be some form of control there.

jamie

Like most things you can have too much of a good thing. I think that a line graph of the growth of a tree would peak about where the manufacturer tells us.
A big but is though that the application rates are usually come about by cost of fert compared to return which is not as relevant in home grown bonsai as it is in commercial crops.
So you may be able to lift the dilution rate for better results if you are not concerned with the cost?

well if you take miracle gro for instance it doesnt seem like much in that bag, but the use of it is quite minimal compare to how much you can make out of it at the recommended dilution ratios, to be on the safer side if you went with 2 times, maybe even 3, it is still gonna last you a fair while as we only fertilize once a week.

this year i have spent maybe $25 all up on ferts. i havent tried the dynamic lifters and blood and bones etc. as of yet i have been very wary about these in pots, i am not sure on it and my gut tells me to stay away as i would probably go over board with it

it probly wouldnt hurt if i used it sparingly and cautiously though so it might be something i have to look into, especially for my growing pots and boxes

jamie

I reckon this is a good discussion. I am very glad that my singing and rambling got some of you thinking.

In short I was saying that a plant needs most of its water in the daytime and therefore if there is going to be a wet dry cycle, then given a choice, the day is when I would choose to keep my plants wet. A 'normal' C3 photosynthesis plant does not loose as much water at night so again in a wet dry cycle then the night is when I would allow it to dry. My personal opinion is that this will aid root respiration and may even slow the growth of fungi and bateria, but I have not qualified the later.

But do remember plants have evolved taking there water whenever they can get it- when it rains. The cloud does not always water at 7 in the morning when it is on its way to work! Sometimes the cloud has to water in the evening when it gets home from dropping the kids at sport. Up here the cloud likes to throw lightning at us, howl profanities and water its plants during the night.

Regarding overfertilizing- yes if there are too many solutes in the water around the roots then the plant cannot take up water because of the greater osmotic potential outside the root than inside the root. If there is an extremely high amount of solutes around the roots then water can be drawn out of the plant which will exacerbate the effect of drought. Measure carefully! In an attempt to avoid fertilizer burn I water heavily around sun up and then I rewater/fertilize around 10 am.

best regards

Ashley

Mine are watered by a timer as there is too many to do manually. I've just increased from once each day ( or should that be night) to twice. I've set it to water just after dark as this gives best water application (minimum evaporation). When trees are showing moisture stress with once a night watering I add a second water cycle just before daylight to saturate the pots to carry them trhrough the coming hot day. the second watering ensures that pots that might not have got properly wet with the first watering get properly wet.
Smaller pots and those that show a tendancy to dry too quickly sit on a water tray. This is a sealed tray about 3cm deep that will hold water (mine is made from a length of cliplock roofing). The tray is full of sand or gravel so the trees sit on the sand above the water but do not sit in water. Evaporating water from the tray keeps the trees humid and cooler during the day so they don't dry out so quickly. Roots usually grow out of the drain holes into the gravel and help sustain the trees. they can just be cut off at the end of the season or if the tree is to be displayed.
All my trees are in full sun as long as they can stand it to keep growth compact. In hot years, sometime in midsummer I put up a shadecloth (about 25%) cover over the more tender types. Some years they go all year without shade.
I've noted leaves yellowing on my figs and occasional dieback of twigs. The figs live in the poly igloo as winter temps get down to -7C. Its not really a good location for figs but they are so impressive that you have to have a couple don't you? I have been putting the yellow leaves down to excess humidity but it could be temp. Does anyone have any other suggestions

Fertiliser is whatever I have at the time - osmocote in the mix at repotting, dynamic lifter pellets as slow release on the soil surface and occasional watering with worm juice, liquid manure, weed tea, or osmocote soluble (This last if anything starts to look hungry yellow)
It doesn't seem to matter what you give your bonsai as long as you give them something. The trees take what they need and the rest leaches out of the bottom of the pot when you water.