AusBonsai

Josh wrote:Hi Hugh,
I should have elaborated a bit more, sorry. In European countries you can go out and collect a 200-500 yr pine, juniper, cedar and put it a bonsai pot and within a very short period you have an A grade bonsai. Our trees that are 200-500 yrs old are 50-100 feet tall and dead straight or 20 foot across.
Don't get me wrong there is plenty of good/great stock out there but not like in Japan. Our Flora is very different to overseas. Some of the native members have some incredible coastal tea trees and I think these are as good as it gets in matching Juni or pines collected on a mountain in Japan.
Having said that I would love to get into some of the old forests in Tassie as I think there would be incredible stock in there.

There is definitely a need for native yamadoori particularly considering some species are difficult to collect. I would love to see a native specialist nursery to promote our own trees.

Josh.

Hey Josh
i understand where your coming from mate, i had the same view point a while back ago. Like every other country out there though whom practice bonsai, they all have there own native material that is really very very good and you see alot of high quailty trees coming from all over the place of different species and forms. All are different though and have different qualities. Australia is no different! there is a tonne of really amazing material out there, alot of it small and compact and very very old, you just have to do a lot of ground work to find these places by knowing the right people and the right locations by reading the environment that contain these kinds of trees. our landscape has trees that are world class and worthy of collecting that would go up against those 200 - 500 year old pine quite easily in a competition if worked right and designed with there inherent Australian characteristics taken into acocunt.

Now when referencing japan, i think its important to consider that japanese trees are japanese trees and are styled like Japanese trees. I dont think it is really fair to say that we dont have the trees like they do in japan. Yes its true they have been doing everything we do bonsai for a while and have great set ups for ground grown stock, collected stock, highly refined finished trees, which are really top class. I think though its important not to compare our own material or any other countries material to japan in such a way that lowers the sense of quality of a countries native material. different trees and different species have their own unique qualities, bonsai aims to show this sense of uniqueness and antiquity in these trees. Like i said before the japanese style and create trees that are reminiscent of there own local material in their own country. this is the same for and should be the same for each country. american style american trees like american trees. europeans style european trees like european trees etc.

JaseH wrote:

Josh wrote:
Don't get me wrong there is plenty of good/great stock out there but not like there used to be in Japan.

Fixed for you Josh

Just a bit of note on this - yamadori juniper is now virtually extinct in Japan with no hope of ever recovering - not for hundreds of years anyhow. Its now illegal to collect from the wild.

Having said that I would love to get into some of the old forests in Tassie as I think there would be incredible stock in there.

I'm all for native yamadori collection here in Aust. but I think we need to tread very carefully and respect area's where growth is slow and very old - such as mountain areas in Tassie. This growth does not just bounce back and probably never will once its removed. I'd rather see this stuff in its natural environment than in someones backyard.

But there is plenty of common species in not so delicate environments that I cant see a problem with

i go by a few very simple points when collecting
1. collect sustainably
2. only collect material of high quality for bonsai, that which is worth collecting
3. only if almost certain of successful collection

This means that not many trees are actually viable to be collected and if trees are collected, an area is not devastated. there may be only one tree that fills all these factors on each acre of a collecting site = minimal impact.

NAHamilton wrote:I'd definitely be interested in a couple.

Obviously the right way of going about it is important in terms of where they are coming from and by the sounds of it you (Hugh) are confident in your abilities to collect and keep alive.

Reading between the lines I'm assuming this is an idea of a business venture? Factoring in your time to collect, cost of petrol, tools, ferts, water, soil, space pot and time, whilst establishing, could put the cost out of many peoples reach (I may change my interest into just one ) I say this given the fact that native bonsai is still somewhat of a new frontier and am extremely large one at that. Personally my spending has gone into the low hundreds for individual trees, but things like Tridents, Figs and Junipers that there is a wealth of information surrounding.

Still in saying all of that, I'll happily pre order a nice thick trunked Baeckea from you.

Cheers
Nigel

Nigel i collect trees quite a lot now days, if i were to start selling these, even better! It would mean that more collected material would be circulated and used in the bonsai community which would in my opinions raise the level higher. It is true that collected material would be at a higher cost than your usual bonsai nursery tree, but considering the attributes of collected material vs. a nursery grown tree you can understand why. there is only so much age and ancient character that can be given to a tree grown in a nursery. this is where i believe collected material is superior to nursery grown. both types of material though do have there place in bonsai of course. Id hate to only have 1 type of source to get bonsai material.

Josh wrote:Getting permission to access a work site can be near impossible because of the legality involved. If you hurt yourself who's responsible. I know we all say "we are responsible" but that doesn't usually cut it. I have asked numerous times and been told no only to watch them burn dozens of trees. It's stupid but that's the way society is these days.

Which is why you make friends with builders. Friends do friends favours all the time. Sometimes it will cost you a case of beer. If you don't have any friends that are in high enough places in a construction company, do this:

Jarad wrote:keep an eye on your local council development application page to see where the new developments are happening.

Before any development can go ahead it has to be posted on the local council development application page for public viewing. The plans have the location of the developments as well as a concept layout. These are created before any construction work has commenced (not even a fence has been put up).

A way that it might be possible to penetrate the beaucracy and get some good plants would to offer the developer/councl your sevices in return for any trees you like. For instance a club could offer to take a sample of native plants off a site to be cleared, rehabilitate them and return them to the site after earthworks had completed.
When Kingfisher Bay Resort on Fraser Island was developed many native plants were dug out and housed in a temporary nursery before being returned to the site after earthworks.
If there was a threatened plant species on a development site it could be a win win situation for everybody and the environment.
Ideally a small group could approach council and be prepared to do a one day safety induction course. Groups involved in weed removal and reveg projects usually are required to do this and site induction each time you attend a site. Unless there is an enviro/socio/political benefit it is unlikely councils will agree to allowing trees to be removed.


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Why isnt this thread generating more interest? I'd like to hear from people who have successfully collected natives and how they went about it/after care and training them.

Free bump!

One reason for not posting results of digs is that your not sure if the plant will survive, After the excitement and dreaming of how great a bonsai you will have , it dies.
How ever after a discussion with Gavin G at the Vic Native Symposium, its important that even the failures are discussed so we all learn.

So after reading all the blogs on wild collecting, and my brother telling me that he was getting a D9 in to clear the Kunzia Burgan from his farm, I packed the car with my collecting gear (checked for hidden tracking device's) (they did threaten to put a tracking device on my car) and headed off on a 1000K round trip.

Filled the car with Lepto Juniperinum and Melaleuca Parvistaminea (rough barked honey myrtle)
Flat out at moment soaking trees and cleaning of weeds and sorting out grow pots.
Will do separate posts for each species.

Regards Milo

Nice work-times like that you wish you had a trailer or a ute!


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Good on your having a go!

Too often I procrastinate ...

Being realistic, my chances at this point in time are rather low. I want to bring the current trees thru more than 12 months without killing them before I attempt to harvest anything from the wild! Just don't think its fair to the trees out there...

Elmar wrote:before I attempt to harvest anything from the wild! Just don't think its fair to the trees out there...

Depends on what sort of wild you're referring to. If its tagged for development, there's not that much harm in trying so long as you do everything in your power to retain as much of the rootball and apply impeccable after care.

If its going to be leveled to start a new suburb, its fair game for bonsai. At least then the tree has a potential future.

Andrew F wrote:

Elmar wrote:before I attempt to harvest anything from the wild! Just don't think its fair to the trees out there...

Depends on what sort of wild you're referring to. If its tagged for development, there's not that much harm in trying so long as you do everything in your power to retain as much of the rootball and apply impeccable after care.

If its going to be leveled to start a new suburb, its fair game for bonsai. At least then the tree has a potential future.

Valid point, Andrew. I guess if they're going to die anyway, theres no net loss. Just makes me feel awful!

I have lots of experience killing trees and I guess I haven't yet discovered how to

Andrew F wrote:... apply impeccable after care...

which, for me is very disappointing and, to some extent discouraging!

Weak I know, I hand my 'Man' card in every nigh, but we don't have a great deal of development up here at the moment so there are no viable collection site ...

Elmar wrote: Valid point, Andrew. I guess if they're going to die anyway, theres no net loss. Just makes me feel awful!

Maybe peruse here:
http://www.porthedland.wa.gov.au/development-plans.aspx
and here:
http://www.porthedland.wa.gov.au/develo ... earch.aspx

It would appear that Ben McKay is the responsible officer for Development applications. Maybe flick him an email or give him a call and see if he can point you in the direction of future development locations where you could go "save" natives. I would also mention that you are into bonsai so you don't sound like some sort of weirdo.

If you don't ask, you'll never know.

Jarad wrote: Maybe peruse here:
http://www.porthedland.wa.gov.au/development-plans.aspx
and here:
http://www.porthedland.wa.gov.au/develo ... earch.aspx

It would appear that Ben McKay is the responsible officer for Development applications. Maybe flick him an email or give him a call and see if he can point you in the direction of future development locations where you could go "save" natives. I would also mention that you are into bonsai so you don't sound like some sort of weirdo.

If you don't ask, you'll never know.

Wow, I've been struggling with our local Gubberment website for years - trying to find information has always been a royal "P" in the "A"! And you just find it like that; very clever.

I used to be Bens' supervisor is another company, lets see how good a supervisor I was ... hahaha, true test now that he will have the power! He might just tell me to stick up my ... jumper!
At least I will know what he really thinks of me

Elmar, collecting in hot dry areas is going to be difficult. If you can, dig after the rainy season (do you have a rainy season?). Or move to Victoria.

Good luck,

Gavin

Hahaha we get rain during/after cyclones!
Rest of the time it's sunny and 50 degrees (unless it's winter then we freed our butt of @ 13 degrees), lol.
You are the second person to encourage me to move East... I'm starting to think ... I should move east... Be interesting to see what the minister of Domestic Affairs thinks about that! "Honey, we need to move east! It's better for the Bonsai!"

Lol, I might just bring it up, for laughs...


Cheers
EZ
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Well gave it a bash today and my back will be complaining tonight
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=20192

Gardens being refurbed is a great way to get old material and there is no issues about collection ethics. Keep you eyes out and the posts here for Gumtree and Ebay ads.
Maybe we should have a running thread on these finds?

Ken

GavinG wrote: (do you have a rainy season?).

It's called "the last cyclone"