Bonsai - Its Art, Science, History and Philosophy by Deborah

[Brian]

Deborah Korreshoff's drawings and styling is excellent. Her text however is away with the fairies.

you obviously don't understand all the basics, she has written about.

Sorry mountain man, I have been around bonsai for 30 years and have attended a Deborah Koreshoff workshop and demonstration in Melbourne way back in 1985. She is a wonderful artist and bonsai exponent but there is always a dialogue about dragons and fairies with everything she says about bonsai. As a matter of fact, she demonstrated restyling of a bonsai at the Melbourne convention dressed as a Elf.

[mountainman]

you still don't get it

[Rory]

I do feel it is my civic duty to add to this thread. I used to attend the Sydney Eastern Suburbs Bonsai club just near the Randwick Army Barracks many, many years ago, probably around 1996 or 1997 and I remember meeting Dorothy Koreshoff for the first time. To me she was fairly old back then, but she was a lovely woman She looked quite happy at me to see such a young person attending the club. I think I was the youngest one there on the times I attended. I remember commenting that it was her daughters book that started my keen interest in the subject after reading it. My mother had originally bought the first edition from a bookstore and I have kept it after all these years. I don't think my mother read much of it, but I would read it all the time as there was really nothing else much around other than magazines at the time. The internet had only just been born at that stage but I wasn't online, and growing up we had bookstores and libraries, that was it. I did also read and re-read Dorothy and Deborahs book on Bonsai with Natives, but it was not as detailed compared with Deborah's enormous efforts on her book. I still loved the native book though because it got me so inspired to attempt Casuarina, banksia and others. It was way back then that my passion for natives was beginning to grow because of this book.

After meeting Dorothy and talking to her for hours, she happily went about making me feel welcomed and encouraged me to join and acquire wild stock or cheap native nursery stock from the council. She also encouraged me to come out to her nursery and she would show me around and introduce me to her daughter who had written the book that I had grown up reading all my teens and I was looking forward to it. She would always quite happily show me how to do things and encourage me to take my own view on bonsai and develop new skills.

So when I finally got my license the first place I drove out to was the Koreshoff nursery, and then Ray Nesci's nursery. I met Ray for the first time and probably talked to him for well over an hour. Rays nursery had pretty much the same type of stock as he has now, in that he had a lot of varieties and as a result I always bought a lot more stock from Ray. But what was just mind blowing, was seeing that enormous personal collection of the Koreshoffs. They never had much stock to sell, but I remember buying many pots and some stock from the Koreshoffs. I ran into Dorothy there, but Deborah was always away and I never ended up meeting her on the many times I frequented their nursery, but if she was anywhere as kind and helpful as her mother, my hat would have gone off to her. I have always found Deborahs book very informative, so I don't understand what all the fuss is about on this thread as the book is highly detailed, and you can tell that Deborah had put an immense amount of effort into it. It was my first self taught lesson to read her book and I quickly learnt a lot from it. I don't want to ruffle any feathers, but the Koreshoffs really had such a beautiful nursery out there at the time and it is a shame to the community for their loss.

Every bonsai enthusiast will see or develop their own style, and from this we are all enriched to see different forms and interpretations of the art. This is what deep down, we all love whether we realize it or not. If we all felt the same and grew the same stock and styled the same, it would be a very mundane world indeed. The Koreshoffs are the founders of bonsai in Australia and my heart goes out to them and their very appreciative efforts for this. I loved reading their books as a teenager, and still love reading them today. Remember, bonsai isn't just science, it comprises many facets and that primary facet is art. The science of bonsai is what allows the art to blossom.

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1778

Humble are those that express their wisdom and art selflessly. Art will always be subjective and a form of interpretation that is often critiqued in four dimensions. Native Australian Bonsai will always pay deep gratitude to the Koreshoffs and their tireless efforts.

[Elmar]

Well said! I think we do better lifting up those that put themselves out there, otherwise no-one would share anything if we keep running them down.

As for opinions, well..., they're like navel-lint, everyone has a different colour! So disagree with respect!

BTW, I've only just now bought the book and I'm looking forward to getting another perspective on Bonsai. In the beginning I will focus on the science because that is what I need to keep the trees alive. Skill and experience will develop the art later... Unless I'm totally useless, but thems the breaks.

Cheers
Elmar

[peterb]

Hi Bonsaibuddyman
You are truly a priveleged person to have been under the mentorship of one of the bonsai greats , and to have been fostered into the care of bonsai at an early age by someone like that would be something very special to you . You are indeed priveleged
regards
peterb

[mountainman]

Yes, I second that,if those that complain about someone else's work, by them introducing Penjing and Bonsai, done in Australia,which becomes a Bonsai Classic book, around the world,and still rates very highly, then why these negative comments.It sounds like jealousy to me,because you have not been out there, to write a book yourself.What were the titles of your books ?? Iv'e never heard of them!!Deborah would have had by far the best collection at the time,in Australia,and if the nursery was still going it would certainly still be the best.Everyone agree's to that.So, before you make derogatory statements, about some one else, and there contribution to Bonsai in Australia,Let's all see what you are made of.Put up some tree's[so everyone can judge them], or keep your negative thought to your self.

[JaseH]

Don't take it so personal mountainman - everyone is entitled to their opinion be it positive or negative. I'm inclined to agree with treeman's earlier comments that bonsai in Australia appears to be very scared of criticism. We dont need to agree with everyones opinion but we should at least listen to them, as there may be something in it. I have a feeling a lot of experienced people refrain from posting on this forum simply because they will be attacked by giving a critical opinion about something and kissing arse all the time leaves a bad taste in their mouth.

For the record I am a big fan of the Koreshoffs and what they have done for bonsai in Australia - but that doesn't mean they are beyond criticism.

[Homer911]

I opened a can of worms : )


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[Graeme]

Criticism is a wonderful thing isn't it. There are many forms of criticism, as we should all know. There is first off, that constructive criticism that we all like to have levelled at us at some time of another. Without it we could very easily fail to grow and simply meander through life, never moving forward. Then there is the sarcastic form of criticism. This is seldom beneficial to anyone, often ending up with the receiver turning off to any future advice or suggestions, given by anyone, simply because their back is to far "up". Then there is the other type of criticism. That is the plain mean spirited criticism that has been carefully cultivated to not get the receivers back up, but to completely remove any and all credibility from the receiver. Usually it is born of down right jealousy of the giver for the contributions of the receiver and has, I believe no place in the world today. We have all received criticism in some form or the other at differing times throughout our lives. That is inevitable as none of us are perfect (thank goodness) In the long run, I believe, all criticism is good for us, even the sarcastic and the mean spirited, as long as we are aware of that criticism. Criticism given in private, never being made known to the receiver, or behind the cloak of anonymity is not good criticism in and way shape or form.

But anyhow, my Mum has always told me, "Son, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything". Reminds me of some advice Dorothy Koreshoff gave me a long, long time ago. She said, "when critiquing another person's Bonsai and you can't find anything nice about the tree, always say something like nice pot, or nice moss"

How could sarcastic or mean criticism be any good for us I hear you ask. Well it's good for us, because we know the giver of such criticism isn't all that nice a person and we would be better to go off and find other friends.

[Pup]

I opened a can of worms : )


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You did not open it. It was opened by people who want to prove their point.
In 1985 I was given a copy of you too can grow bonsai in Australia by Vita and Dorothy Koreshoff, I was very grateful, I have not looked back.
The next book was the one in question, I still say it is one of the best on the market, and many people throughout the world agree.
Of those many people Subaro Kato was one, William Valavanis also but who are they to have an opinion on Australian Bonsai Talent.

Cheers Pup, By the way just my opinion. I think this page will be closed soon.

[Rory]

The links below are for people that didn't have the pleasure of knowing her. One of my favourite memories of her was at Randwick. Dorothy asked me which of the trees that were bought in that day did I like the most (I did not have a lot of money back then). I told her I liked the fig and the maple. So she went straight over to their work bench, and asked if the owners minded her taking their cuttings. She then bagged them all up and gave them to me and said, "now, cut the leaves like this, place them in soil up to here, etc etc'. Then I replied, 'thank you kindly but I live in a unit.' "So where do you keep your trees?" she asked. 'Oh, on the ledge of my window', was my reply. Now, she did not tell me off, she did not shake her head, but she smiled and said 'well, you're going to have to move very soon aren't you' She said, in that kind manner that she always carried.
It was then that I realized complimented with her amazing talents she was also a sooth sayer - because as my hobby grew so quickly I moved within 2 months.

http://www.bhsc.nsw.gov.au/external/hil ... hoff01.htm

http://www.bhsc.nsw.gov.au/external/hil ... hoff02.htm

Hi Bonsaibuddyman
You are truly a priveleged person to have been under the mentorship of one of the bonsai greats , and to have been fostered into the care of bonsai at an early age by someone like that would be something very special to you . You are indeed priveleged
regards
peterb

Yes, I instantly warmed to her and felt very accepted. At first I felt a little out of place being young and among older people. I felt that I was a fish out of water, but I could tell Dorothy sensed that and made me feel very welcomed. I regret not having attended more, as I ended up working just shy of 100 hours a week to save for my first place in Mascot. I did still see her on the odd occassion at her nursery, but I would have loved to have spent more time with her. She was a walking wealth of knowledge.

In 1985 I was given a copy of you too can grow bonsai in Australia by Vita and Dorothy Koreshoff, I was very grateful, I have not looked back.
The next book was the one in question, I still say it is one of the best on the market, and many people throughout the world agree.

Wow, I think my mother must have been going to the same book store as you Pup. It is a shame you don't have the video footage of your trip to the nursery for nostalgic reasons. Though at least you also got to see their collection, which is possibly a lot more than many users on this forum. Dorothy took me around and showed me a lot of the trees in the collection, but one thing which stood out, was she said to me ...'to attain a tree such as this, (pointed to a very big old pine) you don't need a lot of money, you need to learn how to keep the tree alive and healthy and the rest you will learn in time.' The best thing to do is attend the club meetings and learn from the experienced members with great trees. It is not a difficult hobby once you learn the basics. Just keep learning.

She made me realize that I could. Even though I think I killed the first 100 trees before I finally started 'getting it', the rewards finally spoke for themselves.

[treeman]

Reminds me of some advice Dorothy Koreshoff gave me a long, long time ago. She said, "when critiquing another person's Bonsai and you can't find anything nice about the tree, always say something like nice pot, or nice moss"

Graeme, seeing as you consider criticism as a wonderful thing, I'm sure you won't mind criticism of the above piece of advice.
I have been asked to critique trees before. Now if looked at a particular tree and said ''nice moss'' without saying anything about the tree itself, I believe this would be akin to a slap in the face to the grower. (especially with others listening -which is usually when critiques are given) He/she would be quite entitled to feel embarrased and completely discouraged.

Much better in the long run to say '' in my opinion this tree needs total reconstruction by doing this or that'' Or in some cases, ''This tree will never improve because of this or that''
So yet another ill-conceived quote from the Koreschoffs.

I remember many years ago when I was starting out, someone came over to see my stock and told me they where too tall.
Of course initially I thought ''what crap'', but I never forgot what was said and much later, after some years, I saw that he was right.
If he had said ''nice moss'' my trees might still be too tall to this day? Criticism makes you think much more about what you are doing than continual meaningless complements.
I would much rather someone more experienced than me to tell me what they thought was wrong with my tree than what was right.

[kcpoole]

I would much rather someone more experienced than me to tell me what they thought was wrong with my tree than what was right.

Gold comment
only proviso is that the criticism be given with as much care and courtesy to the receiver.

Ken

[Rory]

Criticism as per wiki

To criticize does not necessarily imply "to find fault", but the word is often taken to mean the simple expression of an objection against prejudice, or a disapproval of something. Often criticism involves active disagreement, but it may only mean "taking sides". It could just be an exploration of the different sides of an issue. Fighting is not necessarily involved.

Criticism is often presented as something unpleasant, but it need not be. It could be friendly criticism, amicably discussed, and some people find great pleasure in criticism ("keeping people sharp", "providing the critical edge").



The main issue about giving criticism means that it implies a degree of opinion. For instance, if one was to critique another members tree, it is entirely based off of their perspective. Now what makes us human is that we all have a different perspective, so for one person to critique another's tree, it may be warranted, but it may also receive the complete opposite view from a corresponding individual.

We have to remember that criticism if meant to be helpful otherwise why else would you give it, should really be kept constructive, because your critique is your opinion, but may not necessarily reflect the opinion of those equally or more so experienced eyes. So whether the constructive criticism is valid is subjective to the receiver, and that is the key issue. Whether the receiver wants or understands the criticism is paramount, as Treeman states, and this of course often falls on deaf ears.

But as others have stated on the flip side, it is best to listen to all critique if you ask me, look at their efforts and results, and then formulate your own decision. No matter how much critique one gives a very, very, very experienced bonsai grower and one of the founders of bonsai in Australia one has to look at all their efforts and every tree they have styled before one generalizes them into a short, 'somewhat insulting' summarisation which is not at all constructive.

[treeman]

No matter how much critique one gives a very, very, very experienced bonsai grower and one of the founders of bonsai in Australia one has to look at all their efforts and every tree they have styled before one generalizes

Not necessarily. If I look at 2 trees someone has been working on for a number of years and is willing to exibit them, I can pretty much assess the skill level whether the tree is anywhere near finished or not. I don't need to see all of them.
Many people who have been at it for many decades have achieved very little. It's a simple fact. But that is ok. It is always the way it has been in art.