AusBonsai

JMHO"s mate. What you have purchased is basal girth and spread. There is nothing wrong with spending your money for that purpose alone. If you would like to join us there will be a few of us over my place doing some root grafting on tridents next month and that would be perfect time to start the cuttings also. Gives you plenty time to think about your options till then. Bsv roks best club in the country you should join ! Just pm me if you wanna have a crack...

Andew09 wrote: Butt ass ugly thought i had picked an ok trunk to work with

Andy,

May I shed some light on why people suggest that this should be chopped down. Have a look at my mark-up below. What you will see is that the trunk as it stands (and viewed from the side you have photographed) has some very definite and angular steps in it. These steps are not only changes in growth direction, but also very definate changes in taper/thickness. Visually this is not a pleasing scenario. The other aspect to it is that the area between the two green arrows has little taper, and hence little character. By chopping the trunk right down and leaving the section with the great roots and taper down low, you can control the growth of the trunk to get more character, movement and taper into it. It is a long term job, but I'd agree with them that it is well worth the effort. You may also want to look at the possibility of chopping to the blue arrowed branch (difficult to see in a 2D photo). Don't be too quick to chop though as once gone, its gone. Take your time and make a decision based on what you like, and what you think will make the tree a better tree for you! If you look at all the truly beautiful maples out there, they all have a good trunk with loads of appeal. Go and find a local club, take the tree and get some advice from people with experience in Tridents.

Cheers,

Andrew

anttal63 wrote:V cut at the first 2 branches, sky is the limit from there and make hard wood cuttings out of the rest ! Do not waste time air layering any of this.

Ant, I think that you should Describe what you envision as in the future, ie Short Stumpy trees ( sumo ) when you mention this sort of advice as new enthusiasts might get somewhat confused.

Some like them short, Others like them tall.

Endless arguments will no doubt ensue when I say that I make this tree to be about a Ratio of height to girth of about 7:1.
An accepted Ratio for deciduous trees is between 6:1 and 12:1 so this to me is a lovely candidate for a taller slender tree.

Andy whatever style of tree you prefer will be the guiding hand when deciding what you will do going forward with this one before you decide to cut or not

ps. I much prefer to see a tree in the taller slender styles than short fat ones

Ken

Andew09 wrote:Ant,

Butt ass ugly thought i had picked an ok trunk to work with

Andy

See my previousl post for this. What one sees as ugly is not necessarlity the same for all

I would actually like to see another Photo of the trunk like the first picture, but turned about 45 deg to the right.

I very much like the tree at its current height, but as ant mentions the roots will have to be fixed by Root grafting new shoots on

Ken

anttal63 wrote:V cut at the first 2 branches, sky is the limit from there and make hard wood cuttings out of the rest ! Do not waste time air layering any of this.

Sky is the limit!!! was mentioned, not sumo or any other style Ken. Please dont mislead Bonsai and encourage one to settle for second best. If andrew takes up the offer it will be talked about in depth and then up to him if he wishes to post. Thats all from me !

Gents,

There is so much i need to think about. Ant, looking at your options and thoughts, it makes much sense to v cut and make hard wood cuttings, and Ken much the same i agree it would make a great upright. So many decisions

I'm not too keen on cutting though and being my first Trident have always wanted a more masculine tree i'm more than happy to experiment. I'll give it some thought over the next month and let you know the perceived future.

Andy

anttal63 wrote:

anttal63 wrote:V cut at the first 2 branches, sky is the limit from there and make hard wood cuttings out of the rest ! Do not waste time air layering any of this.

Sky is the limit!!! was mentioned, not sumo or any other style Ken. Please dont mislead Bonsai and encourage one to settle for second best. If andrew takes up the offer it will be talked about in depth and then up to him if he wishes to post. Thats all from me !

What does "sky is the limit" mean?.
who is misleading?
Why would keeping the current height mean Second best? As we all know, everyone has opinions and our own preferences, and what one person thinks looks good in a tree, does translate to everyone

I assume if andrew paid $100 + for a tree because he liked the trunk, then being told to cut off at the first branches and regrowing from there is not what he is expecting and will not encourage him to enjoy his purchase.
The thought of purchasing a wonderful trunk, and then being to the only solution is to cut it all of and regrow for the next 5 - 10 years is sort of deflating.

You advise him to cut it off at the 1st 2 branches with a V cut, but explain no further. What is you final idea for the tree to warrant such drastic action? Does andrew understand what you are envisaging as the final outcome after cutting so hard?

Ken

its at this point ill add my think of it this way once its cut its cut, so there's no problem in trying to turn it into a tall tree just to find you should have cut it and regrown it. this is much better than cutting it and wishing you hadn't. my advice is keep it as it is for a year or two try to turn it into something you would like. if you realise that you dont like it tall you can do the v cut idea then but in the meantime enjoy your tree. you can also yuse this time to perfect tacking cuttings and doing grafts.

I agree with Antonio on this one.
There are 2 ways to achieve taper on field grown tridents the first and my preferred is to place the sacrifice branches low on the trunk and let them pull the base out. The second way is to allow the tree to grow up unchecked on one trunk then cut that trunk very low and regrow. This second option seems to be the most commonly seen method in this country the problem being most growers don't cut the trunks low enough and the resulting trunks have too little taper. Tridents are famous for their ability to heal large scars relatively quickly so large cuts are no problem
I think one of the main reasons the Japanese grow so many trident maple bonsai is the ease with which they can produce amazing taper, we should also be taking advantage of the capabilities of this species .
It is difficult for beginners to grasp the concept of heavy pruning but it is one of the key principals to achieving really good bonsai
To grow a good trident trunk takes 10-15 years I would say this one is around the half way mark.
Craigw

God knows !!! you know how to grow tridents !!! Thanks Craig. And there you have it Andy from a guy who grows some of, if not the best tridents in the country !!! Half way to a good bonsai you are here if you take the righteous road. So lets look at that, 7 yrs from now to make a good bonsai. That is good, for you have spent your money on an advanced piece of stock that already has the basal flare and low end girth. Miles ahead! Especially if it cost you $100. To have or make good instant bonsai, you need to spend FAR more than that. You have got your $100 worth here if you know what to do with it. Again let me remind you all !!! This is not an argument about tall trees short trees. This is about how to grow a beautiful seemless trunk that you can control the height, taper and movement of. Now read carefully This means what ever height or style your heart desire's. Lets take this trunk, Andrew as it is. Lets make a taller tree from it. Refer to Andrew L's illustration please. We have lack of seamless taper and abrupt directional changes that dont have a common sense flow about them and the innability to instill beauty to your bonsai. To even attempt to blend and marry these issues through carving, would mean severly carving 2 sides of the tree. This means killing off alot of live tissue which in turn means that you limit your branch placements and design. . This is not a wonderful trunk as is and it can not stay the way it is, build a tree and be a beautiful bonsai. Good luck my friend and hopefully you will listen to people who are growing good Bonsai.

I think We all know how to grow Great stock using tried an true methods. I have several in the ground doing just this.
Ground Grown stock,
lift every 2 = 3 years
Severe trunk chop and wire a leader for shape
Put back in the ground,
Rinse and repeat at least twice to use the next 4-6 years then cut all branches back and grow from scratch for an amazing tree.

Now look at the original post.
Andrew has 2 years of Bonsai Experience and spent a fair amount on a tree expecting to be able to make a nice tree reasonably quickly from it. ( I am assuming here)
To tell him just chop it, Whack it in the ground and come back in 6 years is not doing him any favours. Yes he will potentially have a much nicer tree, and maybe will learn how to develop stock in the meantime, but I assume that is not why he purchased this particular tree.
Good luck


Ken

Many useful things said here.


Lisa

I have come to realize large stumps are not the best type of material to work with. I made to mistake of buying a few expensive trunk stumps they are much harder (takes longer) to turn into something special when compared with growing a tree in the ground for 5 years from a starter plant or air layer.You also end up with 2 different types of bark in some cases new and old . this stump you have looks like its 2 inches thick its also very straight so i have 3 options for you the first has been mentioned, to attempt a broom style bonsai using the v cut method , but the thicker the trunk the less realistic the results will be because the new branches that grow around the out side of cut ( bark area )leaving a big hole in the middle. swelling is also a problem around the cut area i bit like the swelling i see on your stump causing negative taper. the v cut can be wrapped with raffa to try to stop this . 2nd option is to chop low down and grow a new branch (leader) to become the new trunk adding movement into the trunk . the 3rd option is the one i would go with and that is to carve out hollow out the stump and try and create an old broken hollowed out stump bonsai . Because you re-potted your stump at the wrong time you probably wasted robbed to tree of potential energy stored in its roots and another year could be spent trying to re establish your stump even before any healthy growth is seen.so really it could take up to 5 years to get that trunk to re establish and grow into some thing use-able were you are probably better of growing one from scratch ,

Attending workshops with great teachers such as Peter Adams one thing I found very interesting was the ability of the instructor to find a solution to every problem without chopping the tree back to it's base and starting again.
This acer does present problems in it's current form but I like to think what would a great teacher do here. I know they would not instruct to chop as Antal has especially if this trunk was the best the student owned.
As stated there is much to learn from this trunk and along the way Andrew may decide to buy another trunk to plant out.
I think the best option in Andrews position is to carve the tree out to create a more natural taper and then let it grow wild. Be surprised how quickly these scars can heal in the right conditions.

Like Lisa I think there is a lot of good info here.

I would go with the hard chop myself, I've never been one to think that good bonsai can be created quickly.
One of the few things I've learned is that whilst one could make a quick tree out of a lot of material, they will never make a great tree, and the longer you put of chopping the tree the longer it will take to make something outstanding.

Another option is to layer the tree, it could also be good to extend your skills in the art, but this process could take around another 10 months. Potentially make two trees out of one. With the top you could practice your skills in ramifying the tree and have something on your bench that you can display quickly. But again this will be an okay tree not an outstanding example of what a Trident can be.

The bottom of the tree has great potential. I would look into root grafting and let it grow for awhile as already mentioned, in my opinion it would be very feasible to build a good bonsai over the next 7-10 years as it already has a decent base.
On a side note, Tridents are very vigorous and it will bounce back in no time, perhaps most people would not take the time to layer the tree because of time constraints but it could be good prac.
What ever you choose to do, take your time and definitely seek out a club to help you go through the options.