Diatomite or Kitty Litter???

[Bretts]

Tech
Lorreta mentioned Chandlers kitty litter or Diatomite which is also a kitty litter.
Sorry too Tech but the only place apart from the heading that anyone has generalised about kitty litter is in your post. Everyone else has specified what kitty litter they are talking about Diatomite or Attapulgite.
The only misleading comment here is

Kitty Litter is for cats to pee on

As you recommend diatomite but it is also a kitty litter. Maybe a warning to test all substances yourself to see how they perform would be prudent but to imply that kitty litter is no good in general is the misleading comment. Like I said before I have found a diatomite that breaks down as soon as it is soaked in water too.
You say you agree with Mojo in the other thread but as far as I remember Mojo never came back to the thread after I led him to the great results chandlers has given me.

[Bretts]

Found an interesting bit of info on this website:

https://www.attapulgite.org/

The structure is somewhat between laminated and chain structure. Attapulgite looks like soil, and compact blocks which are found in the sedimentary rocks and the weathering crust. Attapulgite are white, hoar, caesious or celadon, or with some dim mercerization in color. The clay of attapulgite is fine and a bit greasy smooth, light in weight, crispy, and the fractured surface is like shells or in irregular shapes. Attapulgite has strong ability to absorb water. When it is wet, attapulgite shows plastic and adhesive properties; and when it gets dry,attapulgite does not shrink much and does not show cracks. When it is soaked in water,attapulgite collapses. The suspending liquid does not create soliquids and precipitates, when meeting electrolytes.

(My underlining)

So, I have a few questions:
Has anyone used this stuff personally?
Do they find it suitable and
Does it break down - if so, how long do you think it lasts?

Hi Tman

I have used it on and off over the years and it works well for me. I had a look at that link and I am guessing it is a different source than what we have here or processed different or whatever. They talk alot about dissolving it down taking impuritie out and drying it back down again. Zeolite Diatomite Attapulgite and the such all have various deposits that have different "ages" I have a white zeolite that is a few million years younger than the red zeolite and it is not so much like a rock. I have found Diatomite (barbecue under tray) that broke down as soon as I added water. Looks like this website talks about Attapulgite mined in USA I think Chandlers is mined in Western Australia.
I have found Chandlers Attapulgite to last 2-3 years at that stage it has held it's stucture but can be squashed with fingers just like Akadama. I have heard people say that Akadama is crap too! I really don't believe any of this "that medium only works in that climate" any more. You can see alot more discussion people who say it is crap people who say it is good and at least one of my trees that has flourished in it for 2 years here.
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2292&hilit=chandlers

[Taffy]

Thanks Bretts.

I wasn't trying to put anyone down or be critical or anything, I was genuinely interested in personal experience because I'd be interested in trying it myself.

Where do you source the Chandlers brand from?

[Bretts]

That's alright Tman, I didn't think you where. I would be concerned reading that if I had not used it before as well.
They mention Fullers earth on that site you linked. On Harry's infamous kitty litter for bonsai articale it mentions not to use Fullers earth kitty litter. I was a little confused about this when reading Harry's article as it is Attapulgite. Maybe this now answers it as being a different deposit of Attapulgite.

Edit: Oh the best thing about Chandlers is it is sold at Woolies.

[Mojo Moyogi]

Hi Loretta,
Maidenwell Diatomite is not kitty litter, nor is it manufactured to absorb oil spills, it is intended for horticultural use. Mt Silvia Diatomite produces several products, some for horticultural use, some not. I have never used the Mt Silvia products, so I can't advise on their limitations or advantages, I have used Maidenwell for years and have had repeated long term success. I have experienced Chandlers Kitty Litter on both my trees and 2 clients trees and would never use it again for several reasons that I have stated many times previously on this forum.

Brett,
Conveniently associating Diatomite with Attapulgite is like comparing Spaghetti with Jasmine Rice, they are 2 VERY different things.

Cheers,
Mojo

[Loretta]

Thank you Glenda, that is very nice of you. Actually I would like to try a bag or two if that's ok. I work at the hospital which is right next door to the Uni and I'm only a 6 minute drive from both. Is the Diatomite brown or white, by what some of the boys are saying the Kitty litter one is obviously different to the one you are using even though they are both 100% diatomite. Maybe they have different structures!!! Anyway, if you can spare it I'd love some, keep me posted.
I'm about to dig out three fairly large bougainvilleas and would like to pot them on with diatomite, seems everyone is using it. Thanks Loretta

[senseijames]

Hi Loretta,
Maidenwell Diatomite is not kitty litter, nor is it manufactured to absorb oil spills, it is intended for horticultural use. Mt Silvia Diatomite produces several products, some for horticultural use, some not. I have never used the Mt Silvia products, so I can't advise on their limitations or advantages, I have used Maidenwell for years and have had repeated long term success. I have experienced Chandlers Kitty Litter on both my trees and 2 clients trees and would never use it again for several reasons that I have stated many times previously on this forum.

Cheers,
Mojo

Hi Mojo, on a previous thread, I posted that the Maidenwell Mine and the Mt Sylvia Mine are 2 hours 12 mins away from each other, so it is possible that they are both possibly the same media, but both companys describe their product differently, maybe for a marketing advantage ???
Cheers
James

[Loretta]

Thank you all for your input, it's much appreciated.
I'm going to try both and see what works for me. It's all about ones' own experiences in the end isn't it.
By the way...how do you earn your bonsai tools in the little pouch on the screen???
Thanks Loretta

[Bretts]

Mojo I never said Diatomite and Attapulgite where the same thing but they are both used as kitty litter among other things. You have had bad results with chandlers, some people have stated bad results with akadama too!

This from the Maidenwell Diatomite safety data sheet

IDENTIFICATION
Product Name: Maidenwell Diatomite (-7mm+2mm) premium grade
Maidenwell diatomite (-2mm+0.5mm) premium grade
Maidenwell Diatomite (-15mm +7mm) premium grade
Uses: Pet litter and for absorbing water, oil and chemical spills, growing medium for
Roses, Orchids, Gerberas, all gardens, pot plants & Hydroponics (aeration &
slow release of water and nutrient) in horticulture.

[kcpoole]

Hi Loretta,
Maidenwell Diatomite is not kitty litter, nor is it manufactured to absorb oil spills, it is intended for horticultural use. Mt Silvia Diatomite produces several products, some for horticultural use, some not. I have never used the Mt Silvia products, so I can't advise on their limitations or advantages, I have used Maidenwell for years and have had repeated long term success. I have experienced Chandlers Kitty Litter on both my trees and 2 clients trees and would never use it again for several reasons that I have stated many times previously on this forum.

Cheers,
Mojo

Hi Mojo, on a previous thread, I posted that the Maidenwell Mine and the Mt Sylvia Mine are 2 hours 12 mins away from each other, so it is possible that they are both possibly the same media, but both companys describe their product differently, maybe for a marketing advantage ???
Cheers
James

Hi James
As about the only one here I think that has used Both brands i will answer Unequivocabley That as far as I can tell, they are Similar
They both feel the same and as far as I can tell, Work and perform the same.
Maidenwell has more brown in it where Mt Sylvia is mostly white / light grey. It ages to a darker colour, but is defilnitley a lighter colour overall

No they are not the same product / source, but are close enough to be treated as identical and I doubt the plants would notice any different

I will happily use either as they cost (where available), and performance is the same.

Ken

[kcpoole]

Thank you all for your input, it's much appreciated.
I'm going to try both and see what works for me. It's all about ones' own experiences in the end isn't it.
By the way...how do you earn your bonsai tools in the little pouch on the screen???
Thanks Loretta

the more you post the more tools you get

I think 500 posts is a full roll

Ken

[Loretta]

thanks Ken

[Jamie]

hi loretta

i cant comment on the kitty litter as i havent used it before, im just not sure bout it to wan to give it a try, i can comment on diatomite and think it is the best medium that can be used for bonsai. JMO

as for the BBQ absorber i did get a couple of bags of that, it stated it was 100% zeolite, i got it home and opened it up and it looked like a diatomite(possibly other stuff to), so i tried it with water and it held its structure, but it was very fine 2mm or less, having a high percentage of that in a mix with constant watering it compacted together and come out in chunks.

i guess what i am saying is that these ingredients might not always be 100% of what they are stating. i cant see the company putting every little ingredient they use in there cat litter, BBQ absorbers, oil spills clean ups etc.

if you can get diatomite, actual diatomite i recommend it over the others. cant say on akadama or kanuma either, havent used it, but dont think i will be interested if it collapses and gets gluggy.

you have to remember, this is what you are putting your trees into, to try and get them to grow. an inferior quality medium that collapses, goes gluggy, compacts etc. is it really worth trying it?

you have some access to diatomite, thats where i would go

just reading a bit of the other thread brett (didnt go through all the pages) you said you use it as a 1/3 ratio with a grit and a potting mix? have you, or any one else tried it at 100%

just some of my thoughts for what they are worth people

jamie


EDIT- Just seen a picture of the cat litter fines, it looks exactly the same as to fines of the cat litter

[Glenda]

Loretta, you are the most northern regular contributor to this forum I am aware of, and I am the next most northern. With our heavy monsoonal rains the Chandlers attapulgite which is CLAY (and not baked either, as far as I know) breaks down very rapidly - mine was turning to sludgein the bottom of the pots within three months. Diatomite, which is the fossilised remains of diatoms, microscopic water creatures, it NEVER breaks down, and is reusable.

PM me with your details and I will get some to you on Friday, $25 for a bag and you can try it for yourself. You will love it. Can't overwater with diatomite.

Glenda

[Bretts]

Hi Glenda,
You say the constant rain breaks this stuff down. I and other have it soaking in water for months and it not break down so I don't think the constant wetness would be the issue. Rian pelting down on it beating it to a pulp I guess is possible but then the same would happen with Akadama
I just don't believe any of this about mediums only working in certain climates anymore. I hear alot of it but have never seen any actual evidence. What I have seen is alot of people using a medium in a climate that other people said it will not work in. how many times have I heard people say Akadama only works in the Japanese climate it is too hot here . This and also it just does not make any sense. I see first hand people growing in heavy compacted clay like soil and there is other proof out there it works well.

After seeing Kanh Linh do his Penjing setting at BBTH last weekend where he used his muck mix soil (see posts re) I was lucky enough to visit Phillipe Tot's Lignan Penjing Academy where he had some very fine examples of his penjing on display in the classroom. As with Linh he uses clay based soil mix which becomes very hard and not at all porus like the mixes I use for my bonsai. He also relies on this mix to supply the nutrients for the duration of the cycle before the next repot - which can also be a lot longer -about five years and only using a little simple liquid fertiliser not of commercial origin as this may contain preservatives that he feels may harm the microorganisms of the soil. The miosture retention of this set-up appears also to work in a different way to the usual bonsai mix. The clay base absorbs a great deal of water and sits on a container without holes so it is thoroughly wet at the start and he says this takes quite a long time to become dry even on very hot days and does so in uneven stratas.

There is always a different path to explore
Ric

We have people saying that 100% diatomite drys out too quick in hot climates. Well I am in hotter than thiers and anytime a medium is drying out too quick you just water it more or if that is too much trouble just add more spag moss.

Lets make it clear though I never said that Chandlers was better than Diatomite I never even said it was as good. I said I have used it as a 1/3 mix and it worked exceptionally well over a 1-3 year period.
Most of the people that have said it does not work any time we discuss it have never explained how they used it. (100% or as a mix) and are vague on any other details. They continually make broad statements that kitty litters in general are only good for pissing on but ignore the fact that the one they recommend is also used as a kitty litter and oil soak er and all of the above.


Hey Jamie
There are several brands of BBQ under tray used to soak up oil the one I had said it was diatomite It looked like diatomite and it broke down as soon as water touched it. I guess yours was a different brand. The diatomite we know is high fired.
People all over the world swear by Akadama and it is a well known fact it breaks down over a few years. So many things can be going on with a tree to cause an issue and jumping to the most obvious is not always the right choice.
I have found some very interesting things about Chandlers and why it has worked so well for me.