AusBonsai

Grant it was not a controlled trial such as you are doing now. What I did was three trees or in this case Shimpaku cuttings Identical pots. On the same bench, treated all the same. After two years changed the soil. That is when I notice the compaction of the Kitty litter supersorb and versarock against what I had been using prior to Akadama.

Which was Carnavon riversand potting mix and coco peat.

Cheers Pup

Pup wrote:Grant it was not a controlled trial such as you are doing now. What I did was three trees or in this case Shimpaku cuttings Identical pots. On the same bench, treated all the same. After two years changed the soil. That is when I notice the compaction of the Kitty litter supersorb and versarock against what I had been using prior to Akadama.

Which was Carnavon riversand potting mix and coco peat.

Cheers Pup

Thanks,

I am sifting out the fines from the Diatomite and others to avoid clogging. Compaction will or will not happen then depending on the individual characteristics of each medium.(Not all Diatomaceous products would be suitable for Bonsai)

Thanks for alerting me to this.

Grant,

I think its a great you're prepared to test various components. I have a couple of suggestions;

One of the most important measures is the air-filled porosity. It's calculated as the volume of water that drains out of the pot after being saturated. See Handrek and Black, Growing media for ornamental plants and turf, if you don't already have a method. Testing for the total amount of water absorbed will be misleading as many of the components you are testing will hold moisture which is not available for plants. Where as measuring the volume of water which drains away will give you an accurate measure of how much air actually fills the mixture. I also recommend doing several replicates of each mix, in case some of the plants die.

Good luck with the tests.

Paul

63pmp wrote:Grant,

I think its a great you're prepared to test various components. I have a couple of suggestions;

One of the most important measures is the air-filled porosity. It's calculated as the volume of water that drains out of the pot after being saturated. See Handrek and Black, Growing media for ornamental plants and turf, if you don't already have a method. Testing for the total amount of water absorbed will be misleading as many of the components you are testing will hold moisture which is not available for plants. Where as measuring the volume of water which drains away will give you an accurate measure of how much air actually fills the mixture. I also recommend doing several replicates of each mix, in case some of the plants die.

Good luck with the tests.

Paul

Hi,

I did a trial run with just one mix today(Mt Sylvia Diatomite) and I did collect the water that drained away. I will incorporate that formally into the trial.

Grant

Hi Grant
Thanks for conducting these tests in an impartial manner - I am sure that I like all others here are keen to see the results.

Paul, your comment is very valid and one I hadnt thought of.

Regards
Steve

Excellent trial. One problem with mixes is how quickly do they dry out - i.e. how often do you need to water? Can I suggest that the samples be left in sun until a bonsai next to them needs watering, and then reweighed to see how much water they have retained over that time. Obviously no-one wants a soggy mix, but the water-three-times-a-day mix is also no use to most of us.

Also, are you considering measuring the common mixes people use, like diatomite/brick or pot-mix/brick? That would be very useful, as we don't pot in components. More complicated, I agree.

Gavin

GavinG wrote:Excellent trial. One problem with mixes is how quickly do they dry out - i.e. how often do you need to water? Can I suggest that the samples be left in sun until a bonsai next to them needs watering, and then reweighed to see how much water they have retained over that time. Obviously no-one wants a soggy mix, but the water-three-times-a-day mix is also no use to most of us.

Also, are you considering measuring the common mixes people use, like diatomite/brick or pot-mix/brick? That would be very useful, as we don't pot in components. More complicated, I agree.

Gavin

Hi Gavin,

With the water test I am only getting theoretical info. I will only be growing the test trees in likely mixtures that we will use in general use.

How often to water will come out in the plant trial.

Just sent you a PM I hope, about other matters.

grant

sreeve wrote:Hi Grant
Thanks for conducting these tests in an impartial manner - I am sure that I like all others here are keen to see the results.

Paul, your comment is very valid and one I hadnt thought of.

Regards
Steve

After thinking about it, it will be difficult to ascertain the exact amount of water that drains out when I lift it out of the water; so it will only be guess work unless you can suggest a method.

Grant.

l

Hi Grant,
What about 'Spongolite'? It is sold as 'Aquatic' by RichGro. I get it from Bunnings here in Brisbane. It's another silicon based product.

I seem to remember you mentioning it in an earlier post but it doesn't appear in your list for the trial.


Thanks

Steve

SteveT wrote:Hi Grant,
What about 'Spongolite'? It is sold as 'Aquatic' by RichGro. I get it from Bunnings here in Brisbane. It's another silicon based product.

I seem to remember you mentioning it in an earlier post but it doesn't appear in your list for the trial.


Thanks

Steve

i haven't been able to get any here.

grant

Watching with interest.

You did try Bunnings I guess Grant. They never know what I am talking about when I ask for it but I have only found one Bunnings that didn't have it.

Pup wrote:Grant it was not a controlled trial such as you are doing now. What I did was three trees or in this case Shimpaku cuttings Identical pots. On the same bench, treated all the same. After two years changed the soil. That is when I notice the compaction of the Kitty litter supersorb and versarock against what I had been using prior to Akadama.

Which was Carnavon riversand potting mix and coco peat.

Cheers Pup

Hi Pup and Grant, I am not surprised by Pup's findings after his trial.

I can't think why people are surprised that products that are marketed as or designed for pets to go to the toilet in or to clean up liquid spills, fail as ingredients for bonsai soils.

Holding moisture is important in our soils, there can be no question of that. What many people fail to take into account time and again, is that bonsai soils are watered at least once daily and are ideally left to slowly dry out at least once daily as well. The kitty litters, supersorbs, ultrasorbs and absorbalites etc. that get used in potting media by bonsai growers, were never inteded to have these stresses of daily expansion and contraction placed apon them. They are disposable one use products. Nor was the concept of air filled porosity, hardness consistency or pH stability a focus during manufacture. Which is why they are not used in commercial horticulture. But both Diatomite and Akadama are.

In regards to the much well worn debate about Maidenwell Diatomite vs. Chandlers Kitty Litter (Attapulgite), I can say that I have seen heavily deteriorated mixes of Chandlers and Pine bark based premium potting mix become unusable in 12-18 months, at the point of seriously impeding plant growth and on a couple of occasions a contributing factor to root rot.

On the other hand, I have been using Maidenwell for 6 or 7 years, both as an additive to propriety bonsai mixes and as a potting media by itself and I can honestly say I have no concerns about it's durability or potential as a bonsai soil or soil additive.

I own Trident Maples in seed trays that have been in 50:50 mixes of Maidenewell and cheap garden supply yard potting mix for 5 years. The trees have performed well in that time, the diatomite granules are stll hard and snap crisply when broken between my thumbs. I have used Chandlers on a couple of occasions, thankfully only in trials, and have found the hardness to be very inconsistent from granule to granule and bag to bag.

I would like nothing more than to mail every member of AusBonsai a handful of 5year old used diatomite and 5 year old used Attapulgite Kitty Litter so they can make up their own minds. You could use the diatomite in your mix and the kitty litter you could mix with a bit of water and paint your face with it.

Cheers,
Mojo

Many people around the world disagree Mojo.
http://www.bonsai4me.com/Basics/Basicscatlitter.htm

Grant Bowie wrote:

sreeve wrote:Hi Grant
Thanks for conducting these tests in an impartial manner - I am sure that I like all others here are keen to see the results.

Paul, your comment is very valid and one I hadnt thought of.

Regards
Steve

After thinking about it, it will be difficult to ascertain the exact amount of water that drains out when I lift it out of the water; so it will only be guess work unless you can suggest a method.

Grant.

l

Hi Grant,
I think I know a way in which you can measure this parameter - I will sketch it up and post ASAP
Regards
Steve