Page 2 of 3
Re: Thoughts on potting in pure sphagnum moss
Posted: May 10th, 2010, 7:18 pm
by Bretts
That's all good Jamie. We should not believe everything we see and being sceptical is good.
One thing though.
Jamie
then you have to think of the wet dry cycle our trees should go through, our trees should have some drier period after watering, so they get a good drink, then it starts to dry, hence a free draining mix, other wise rot sets in,
I would disagree here. Now I am sure there are exception as always but in general my understanding is that a tree will grow best at a certain constant dampness of air and water. Yes in a pot air and water needs to be replaced other wise it will go bad but there is a certain ratio of water and air that a tree will thrive in and keeping the tree constantly at this certain ratio will give best results.
Find a medium that enters this ratio straight after watering and you will never be able to over water. From memory I think it is between 50-25%
Re: Thoughts on potting in pure sphagnum moss
Posted: May 10th, 2010, 7:20 pm
by Mitchell
I have several PJ figs growing in 100% spag and some growing in 100% water. No root rot. My Junipers are however planted in standard mediums, I believe if I switched them to spagnum they would die within a week. You could do it but unlike figs, their medium should dry to prevent root rot, this would mean daily maintanace ensuring the spag wets then dries.
Re: Thoughts on potting in pure sphagnum moss
Posted: May 10th, 2010, 7:35 pm
by Jamie
gday brett,
i see what you are saying that a tree has a perfect balance etc etc. when i say dry, it was meant in a sense of drier, not dry as a bone, just slightly moist, now what you are saying about a tree having a perfect ratio of air and water i totally agree, it does, and my thoughts on using pure sphagnum will not allow this as sphagnum is either super wet, or wet, even when squeezed out it is wet, and then how long does it take to get to a "moist" way? a fair bit of time i beleive, normal watering couldnt be associated with using sphagnum as we generally need to water every day with a free draining mix. thats another thing, i dont think sphagnum is overly free draining. from personal experience excess water will drain out but man it hold a lot of water doesnt it.
just my thoughts
jamie
Re: Thoughts on potting in pure sphagnum moss
Posted: May 10th, 2010, 7:44 pm
by Bretts
Yes I agree I would have thought Spag moss ratio would have been too wet and I was surprised to see trees growing over long periods with no obvious ill effects.
Off course there is healthy and there is healthy so I would not say one way or the other until I see the results for myself. Considering the idea of using it in this way to cure an ailment opens up a few more possibilities. Maybe it is not viable to repot the collection in it but surely it would be worth $8.50 to save a root rotted tree!
I am very much looking forward to trying this
Edit: I hope Archie is able to link the article it could be interesting reading.
Re: Thoughts on potting in pure sphagnum moss
Posted: May 10th, 2010, 7:50 pm
by ketutg
i have air layered PJ figs in 100% sphagnum moss and they're doing fine.
Im currently experimenting with using only this medium for root over rock fig and so far so good.
As previously mentioned though the roots are more difficult to separate.
Re: Thoughts on potting in pure sphagnum moss
Posted: May 10th, 2010, 7:56 pm
by Jamie
to use it to help revive a root rotted tree and using it as a potting medium is a bit different, to use it medicinally i can definately see its benefit, as a long term "standard" mix, i would beleive the tree would suffer from being to wet. even using it medicinally i would chop it up very finely and mix with diatomite as then you would have the benefits of sphagnum moss and free drainage. i will be interested to see what your results come from growing a tree in pure sphag. not to be negative on it but i reckon it will only last no more than 3 months at best before you take it out because of problems. just my opinion once again, maybe we could get some bets happening
yea archie, wheres the link?
Re: Thoughts on potting in pure sphagnum moss
Posted: May 10th, 2010, 7:56 pm
by Ash Barns
Jamie wrote:gday brett,
i see what you are saying that a tree has a perfect balance etc etc. when i say dry, it was meant in a sense of drier, not dry as a bone, just slightly moist, now what you are saying about a tree having a perfect ratio of air and water i totally agree, it does, and my thoughts on using pure sphagnum will not allow this as sphagnum is either super wet, or wet, even when squeezed out it is wet, and then how long does it take to get to a "moist" way? a fair bit of time i beleive, normal watering couldnt be associated with using sphagnum as we generally need to water every day with a free draining mix. thats another thing, i dont think sphagnum is overly free draining. from personal experience excess water will drain out but man it hold a lot of water doesnt it.
just my thoughts
jamie
I think you have got it Jamie it is purely about balance of moisture. Looking at that video once more it may be that the guy lives in an environment which suits this type of growing medium. I think it is a case of don't believe all you see on youtube.
Re: Thoughts on potting in pure sphagnum moss
Posted: May 10th, 2010, 8:12 pm
by Jamie
cheers ash, it is something i have been monitering closey lately how wet the medium is staying or how quickly it will dry out and how much it drains. drainage is a key to things but also keeping the medium relatively moist is a massive factor. i have found using a diatomite with a mix of bought bonsai soil works a treat at about a 90/10 ratio, this gets changed dependant on species obviously.
keep the medium in the right condition and your trees will love you, if they arent right the trees will respond in negative ways. like the "fast grow system" i have had a rather surprising difference, the remaining tree in the fast grow system being a benji which is one of four that i got at the same time, and trunk chopped at the same time isnt going great, it is growing thats for sure, but the ones i left in the nuresery bags are much more developed re the foliage amount. i can get pics tomorrow, i beleive this is due to the fact that the blood and bone and DL have compacted and dont allow great airflow through but also because they stay so constantly wet. i only have to water the fast grow box every two days, where the others are every day because of the free draining medium and the fact it has a good exchange.
jamie
Re: Thoughts on potting in pure sphagnum moss
Posted: May 10th, 2010, 8:38 pm
by Bretts
Thats intresting Jamie my Fig in the fast growth DL system could not be healthier. I water it every day as the surface dries out but if I dig in to the mix it is constantly wet. The trunk is rock solid in the pot so there must be plenty of roots there now.
Re: Thoughts on potting in pure sphagnum moss
Posted: May 10th, 2010, 10:14 pm
by Chris Sirre
Hi guys, I know the qualities of sphagnum moss but haven't heard or read anyting like this before. Worth a try? Always if you are prepared to loose that tree or when you have got nothing to loose.
I use live sphagnum moss to airlayer trees which works really well for me. I plant the whole rootball including spaghnum moss in a larger pot with some sashi-eda bonsai mix without any problems.
So if I had a Juniper with root rot I probabably would treat it the same way. Wrap it in some live spaghnum moss and plant it in a large pot filled with a good draining mix. Luckly I never had this problem.
Re: Thoughts on potting in pure sphagnum moss
Posted: May 10th, 2010, 10:29 pm
by Jan
I use a bed of prue spagnum to strike cuttings, the latest a better than 6 inch wide Kurrajong that is shooting well for me. Below that bed of spagnum (usually about 1 inch thick) I use a mix of 50%spagnum/50% seed raising mix for the new roots to grow on into. Most things seem to love it, recently Ginkos, berberis, roses, elms, Kurrrajongs and eucs.
All I can tell you is that in my dry (low humidity) climate a generous percentage of spagnum works well for me. I have not tried planting in 100%, I only use it for that first inch or so when establishing new roots.
Jan
Re: Thoughts on potting in pure sphagnum moss
Posted: May 10th, 2010, 11:44 pm
by Jamie
Bretts wrote:Thats intresting Jamie my Fig in the fast growth DL system could not be healthier. I water it every day as the surface dries out but if I dig in to the mix it is constantly wet. The trunk is rock solid in the pot so there must be plenty of roots there now.
yea i get the dried surface when i leave it for long enough, it gets enough water but i reckon it is staying to wet to long and a lack of air transfer goes on, i will be leaving it for a few more months yet, i want to see where it goes, but i beleive it wont do to much more, doubt i will se the massive trunk growth talked about.
Re: Thoughts on potting in pure sphagnum moss
Posted: May 11th, 2010, 7:10 am
by archie1979
Wow I didnt realise this was going to be such a hot topic, well I find it very interesting and I have found the links for the articles on the pure Sphag for as Jamie posted medicinal use to bring a tree with root rot back to health.
http://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATSphagnum%20Moss.htm
and also
http://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATRootRot.html
Ahhh I found it I knew it was here somewhere.
From the Bonsai4me website, Im not sure who the author is or if they have actually tried this technique themselves.
Repotting Every two years until around ten years of age then as necessary. A free-draining soil mix should be used. Repot in mid-spring as new growth appears though many Juniperus chinensis varieties can be repotted as late as July. Ensure that all grit or stone used in a soil mix is cleaned as alkaline deposits will adversely affect the tree. For Junipers suffering root rot; cut out all rooted roots and plant into pure sphagnum moss for a year. Sphagnum moss resists bacteria and decay and is very water absorbent. The moss will promote vigorous rootgrowth (at the expense of top-growth) in Junipers whilst its anti-bacterial properties halt the onset of further rotting of roots.
http://www.bonsai4me.com/SpeciesGuide/Juniperus.html
Thats the link to the whole species guide
enjoy !!
Re: Thoughts on potting in pure sphagnum moss
Posted: May 11th, 2010, 7:25 am
by anttal63
archie1979 wrote:Wow I didnt realise this was going to be such a hot topic, well I find it very interesting and I have found the links for the articles on the pure Sphag for as Jamie posted medicinal use to bring a tree with root rot back to health.
http://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATSphagnum%20Moss.htm
and also
http://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATRootRot.html
Ahhh I found it I knew it was here somewhere.
From the Bonsai4me website, Im not sure who the author is or if they have actually tried this technique themselves.
Repotting Every two years until around ten years of age then as necessary. A free-draining soil mix should be used. Repot in mid-spring as new growth appears though many Juniperus chinensis varieties can be repotted as late as July. Ensure that all grit or stone used in a soil mix is cleaned as alkaline deposits will adversely affect the tree. For Junipers suffering root rot; cut out all rooted roots and plant into pure sphagnum moss for a year. Sphagnum moss resists bacteria and decay and is very water absorbent. The moss will promote vigorous rootgrowth (at the expense of top-growth) in Junipers whilst its anti-bacterial properties halt the onset of further rotting of roots.
http://www.bonsai4me.com/SpeciesGuide/Juniperus.html
Thats the link to the whole species guide
enjoy !!
Re: Thoughts on potting in pure sphagnum moss
Posted: May 11th, 2010, 9:51 am
by Jamie
theres few things in what has been said by Harry Harrington there that shows me it isnt to be used as a long term use. i respect Harry's opinion highly, his trees show a great understanding of horticulture and skill of bonsai.
he states for one year, that this will help a root rot affected tree, i can understand that as it will work medicinally ofcourse as has been stated, the other thing that has been pointed out by antonio the fact that top growth will be sacrificed for bottom growth in the root system, i beleive this could be done using a proper mix to avoid root rot in the first place, theres an old saying that goes "prevention is better than cure".
in other words if the right medium is used, a free draining yet moisture retentative that has good exchange rates and has the ability to dry out, accompanied by good watering techniques, this sort of problem can be avoided, there for prevention being better than cure
it is as simple as using your head! common sense archie
