Is diging up a Juniper ok in Feb?

[anttal63]

Thanks for the contribution Antonio

Your welcome sir.

[NBPCA]

By doing such a proceedure at this time of year you will get a quick response one way or the other, live or die.

I would keep more foliage to get the roots kick started, mist frequently to start with and keep protected for a while till color looks OK.

I once had three pieces of Shimpaku nursery stock that had 95% of the roots eaten off by curl grubs. I tidied up the roots a little(trim) but did not trim the foliage at all and put them in the ground and they thrived.

A few years later I dug them out of the ground and again took 90% of the roots off but not the top and put them back into nursery pots and they thrived.

I say keep more foliage with Junipers.

Grant

[Bretts]

Thanks Grant. I feel a bit slack not knowing all this stuff when it comes to conifers but there is so much to learn
Tony Bebb recently told me Junipers are pretty tuff but I am still very unsure about them.
In spring we bare rooted my Juniper as it was a maturing root over rock that needed work. We then reduced the foliage dramiticly and styled. I was told no special after care was nesacary as we had not cut the roots. Just put it back in it's usual growing spot which was almost full sun.


If this is what you are talking about Antonio

http://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATcoll ... %20two.htm

It is much more difficult with conifers. They cannot bud so easily from old wood, especially if needles are not left on so that the tree can continue to feed itself. That means that if an intense pruning (that for a deciduous tree would be suitable and would even keep it healthy) were carried out on a conifer, it would die.
For that reason, it is not advisable to prune a conifer too much if its roots have been worked on a great deal.
Once the tree's strength is restored, it can be pruned little by little as intended for its development as a bonsai. Trying to 'balance' the crown and roots of the tree, as is often recommended, makes no sense. The tree itself knows much better what to do. Even Japanese collectors have had the same experience. After digging up a juniper, they leave the branches and needles intact. A year later, they can prune away long branches.

Then that is exactly the point. This is the advice that I always new so when I am told and shown that balancing roots to foliage is benificail we have contradicting advice.

From Leong

Brett, it isn't how much you can cut the pine down to. It is matter of balance, if you cut down pines like the way I did it, you got to root prune it to balance it. If you don't what it simply does is the roots will just continue to take in water which results in the pine drowning itself. If you don't do drastic pruning, well you can cut anytime and just make sure is seal and don't let it bleed which could also results in branch sectional die back. Hope this help.

Maybe the point that I am considering the advice backwards as the advice was for balancing the roots after reducing the foliage and this is about reducing the foliage to match the roots (or not) that this is not the same when collecting but it got me wondering.
Also although Walters advice is in general for conifers Leongs is for Pines specific so I am not sure if that relates to junipers.
As I had always heard root work one year foliage the next it was confusing to get this advice? Yet intresting

[anttal63]

Here's a few experiences of my own. Which most people here have already seen. All of these had no top work at time of repotting. One other that i did do the lot to is dead. the point is these never missed a beat. Admitadely they all had good roots.

viewtopic.php?f=38&t=426&hilit=juniper+squamata

viewtopic.php?f=38&t=508&p=34573&hilit= ... 27s#p34573

[Bretts]

Of course I have seen leaving the foliage on works but what do you say when you see the video of Leongs where he reduces the top and bottom in one go. Then his explanation of why.
Looking at the first link you gave. Are you suggesting that the foliage could not be worked after bare rooting the tree?
Then the second link states that you have also received conflicting advice about reducing the top the same time as the roots.

I am not advocating one way or the other. Just when I get conflicting advice and both ways work for each I start to wonder why. These things usually have there pro's and con's. It is one thing to follow advice but I often tend to try to understand why the advice works.

Since no one is explaining the pro's and con's yet I have to take educated guesses. What is it that leaving the foliage on does.
Con's- Increases transpiration and the lack of roots has trouble keeping up. This is offset by misting and shade. I think I have come up with a new trick as well
Pro's- It is said that it helps the tree to "push roots" in your words. How or why does it do this. My best guess is that it is the hormone that is produced by the growing tips. This could be replaced with added auxin?
Brent Waltson suggests not cutting back deciduous trees at repotting too much for this reason. The extra growing tips will increase root growth.

What happens when we cut the foliage back.
Pro's - Reduces transpiration so the reduced roots can supply the foliage with what it needs.
Con's Reduces the hormone level from growing tips. But this can be replaced.

My other educated guess is that conifers grow different than I understand so there may be some other factor here. Does the tree store energy in the foliage. Does the tree have no energy reserves to replace foliage?

I would think there would be a difference, even a slight one between juniper and pine.
If we understand why the advice works we can manipulate it not just follow blindly.

[anttal63]

I havent seen leongs video and i dont have time at the moment. ( no smart comments thanks) These are the best results i have achieved with conifers. at that time of the year i dont think i would have done well to reduce foliage nor did i want to loose what was there. There are many scenario's to consider. repot to grow on is one. with this you can and should go for broke. collecting or repotting mature trees/with some stucture, is another and this is what i am refering to in this thread. Its not you cant the other way but i have had better results this way on these trees. Also im the last guy to know the science of why or why not, i just know what i have done and works for me. Thanks to Walters info.

[Sime76]

Thanks Guys

It looks like I might have opened up a can with this thread.

Regarding why leaving the top alone will help the tree to push root, my UNeducated guess would be that with this type of tree, if it finds itself with not enough roots to support the current amount of foliage, it repsonds by "pushing out" more roots. And maybe Junipers can handle this situation long enough to produce the roots before it dries out.


Anyway, here's a couple of pics the pot is about 50 cm diameter. I used general purpose potting soil to pot it ( hope thats ok )

Tonight I also made a makeshift drip tray although its a lot deeper - about 5inchges deep.

Also an ID would be good if possible, I was only guessing it was a Shimpaku. I would not be surprised if I'm wrong ( don't shoot me if I'm wrong)

[anttal63]

No cans syme its all good. It looks like a shimp to me. Theres plenty of green on top no prob. You haven't got a pic of the roots ? I gotta tell you i dont like that soil. In my opinion its doomed in that. It aready looks to compacted. Scoria 5-7mm 50/50 with that soil would be a god send.

[Sime76]

No pics of the roots, Ant.
The soil in the root ball was very compacted and in clumps, I didn't want to mess with it too much incase I did more damage than good. But I did still try getting some more soil off to get at the bigger roots to cut them off. My thinking was to just get it in a pot and doing well then at the apropriate time of year - the end of winter have a good go at the roots etc.

So how would you get some scoria in there? rip the tree out and start again?
or I was thinking I could cheat a little and, with the tree still in place, tip out the soil around the root ball ( top and sides), mix some scoria or "grit"? and put it back in around the tree.

Also do you know where I could find scoira in small quantites? I'm thinking I'll check out Bunnings.
I do have scoria in my back yard but its more like 10mm. hmm, I wonder if I could crush some of it up myself with a hammer or something.
Would any type of Gravel/grit that size do the job?

Sorry for unleashing all the questions.

[anttal63]

Hey Syme, you can always get scoria from Russel at Kensington Nursery, cnr of Stubbs st and Mcauley rd Kensington. there were a few occasion's in the past i wish i had of tipped out and remixed. Your call pal.

[Bretts]

I havent seen leongs video and i dont have time at the moment. ( no smart comments thanks) These are the best results i have achieved with conifers. at that time of the year i dont think i would have done well to reduce foliage nor did i want to loose what was there. There are many scenario's to consider. repot to grow on is one. with this you can and should go for broke. collecting or repotting mature trees/with some stucture, is another and this is what i am refering to in this thread. Its not you cant the other way but i have had better results this way on these trees. Also im the last guy to know the science of why or why not, i just know what i have done and works for me. Thanks to Walters info.

Let me know when you watch the video.It's only a 5 min video.
I agree there are many senario's to consider Antonio thats why I think it is good to consider the options and try to understand why it works.


Scorio can be smashed with a hammer Sime but I would not redo this I would take my chances with the mix you used. Be very carefull with the watering though.

What size scorio is that Antonio?

[anttal63]

5-7mm mate. will do on the video.

[bodhidharma]

I would like to add my educated experience ....Sometimes you get lucky and sometimes you dont

[Bretts]

I like the saying the harder you work the luckier you get

[NBPCA]

Another story about Junipers, foliage and roots.

A good friend of mine (he shall ever remain nameless but his initials are RR)about 25 years ago did a group planting of Blaauws Juniper. This juniper is one of the toughest junipers around and I have used it frequently.

He trimmed a lot of foliage off the trees to do the group setting in one go (wiring, hard foliage trimming, root trimming etc) and it was probably too much, especially the foliage. The trees didn't die but they sulked for about 10 years. Not enough foliage to feed the roots to feed the foliage etc. That was our conclusion and since then with Junipers I have always kept a lot more foliage than roots and have had no problems.

Digging a juniper from the ground at any time, let alone February, is however of course very diferent to the first repot of a piece of nursery stock or an established bonsai.

Also different environments, levels of skill, levels of luck all play a part.

Bonsai is a complex mix of Art, Horticulture and people. Thats why it is fascinating.

Grant