Would you want seeds from me this year?

[TimS]

Great to see someone offering seed suitable for bonsai
Just some of my thoughts and experience with collecting and selling seed. Feel free to take no notice if you wish.

JBP, JRP and JWP are in demand but difficult to obtain and a bit more involved in collecting and processing so I think they should attract a premium. The JWP price list you posted is what I've been charging for JBP I collect here.
Maple seed is generally much easier to collect so I offer 50 seeds for $10 or 100 for $20 but that's for regular unnamed maples. Maybe you can ask a bit more for selected characteristics.
Not sure where you are getting ginkgo seed but I've never been able to collect a lot from any of the trees I know of. My experience is more time consuming to collect and then they also need to be cleaned and dried.
Crab apples are abundant and easy to collect the fruit but takes time and effort to separate the seeds.
Prunus are a little easier to separate the seeds but there's still some time and effort involved to get clean seed out and ready to send.

Happy to offer suggestions re processing seed if you want any assistance.

Thanks so much for taking the time to reply Neil

Couple of questions if i may just so I'm sure i follow. You say my pricing for the JWP/JRP is in line with your JBP seed pricing; does that mean you think it's about right, or that they perhaps should command a little extra for being a little more uncommon and desirable? Just didn't quite pick that up sorry mate. My concern is that there have been some struggles with germination on the JWP specifically and i don't want people to feel like I've shortchanged them on seed if only a very small percentage germinate from.

Yep the JM seed is dead easy to collect, clean and sort, bare minimal effort in those and even less so as they are literally in my back garden. That's kind of what prompted me to think more about price as it's no time at all to do really. I appreciate you sharing the kind of price per number you go with and i'll take that on board for sure.

As far as the Ginkgo go, i specifically know a couple of mature trees that fruit readily that i originally collected from probably 5 years ago now. It requires a specific trip to them for me, so i need to consider that. You are right that it is uncommon to find Ginkgo bearing fruit, let alone any significant number. The cleaning is a royal PITA having done it before; cleaning drying and sorting fruit that smells like rancid butter is never fun. Similar type situation with cleaning crab apple seed being time consuming but not stinky to clean and sort.

As far as packaging goes for postage, do you have any preference for a paper bag/ paper-based packaging vs a zip/ sealable plastic bag or some other container? I have some convenient size small plastic bags, or heaps of paper bags. Just thinking a sealed plastic bag might promote fungal development if the seeds aren't completely dry before being packaged.

[shibui]

I specifically did not offer advice on the JWP seed because I don't want to influence your pricing too much and I don't know how much time/effort that one takes to collect and process.
JWP is definitely harder to obtain. Yours would probably be one of very few sources in Australia though I do know of a few trees growing in Tassie gardens. Not sure that the germination factor is particularly relevant, unless it is actually the see that's at fault. It may become a factor when only 1 in 20 germinate which would make the seedling worth $10 each before they grow.
Otherwise any commodity is only worth what people are willing to pay for it. If you end up with few buyers and a lot of product left that probably means the prices are high. If it takes more to collect, process and distribute than you make (allow for waste and leftover product) then either prices are too low or there's not sufficient market to continue the enterprise.

Ginkgos are dioecious so completely separate male and female trees. Because the fruit is so smelly most nurseries only sell male clones so very few ginkgos are females capable of producing fruit.
Not sure if your Ginkgo source is Ballarat but when I collected seed there it still took some time to pick up a quantity of fruit from under the trees. The tree in Melbourne Botanic garden is well known so others collect the seed and it is even more difficult to get seed there - I think ginkgo seed is used in Asian traditional medicine and as a food so others are interested, but not to grow it. I believe there's a female ginkgo somewhere at Melbourne uni but I have not checked that one.

Sounds like you have processing fruits to obtain seed so won't need tips there.

I prefer paper packaging for seed, just in case it is still not quite dry when mould can become a real problem. Most commercial suppliers have switched to the easier and more secure plastic bags. Plastic should be OK if you've dried the seed well as most buyers will sow seed soon after receiving it. If they choose to store in plastic that's up to them.
Plain 'wages' envelopes are available at most office suppliers for around $11 for 50 if you want paper packets and I've seen printed 'seed' envelopes for around half that price online. Otherwise reused bags would be suitable.

[Raniformis]

From the pics Ryceman3 put up the viability on the JWP seeds looked a bit sketchy. In my opinion it would be best to see what kind of germination ratios people come up with from that seed before selling more.

Of course if you crack a dozen open and all have good seed the above goes out the window. Maybe the better question is whether people are willing to pay for the JWP knowing they may get less than 50% germination. The trees I collected mine from (3 trees, 1 spot) opened all cones at the same time so mature cones would be every second year.

Regarding the ginko, you can just leave them to rot outside, the critters wont touch them with flesh attached. Give them a float test before selling, the good ones sink instantly, the floaters are empty.

[TimS]

I specifically did not offer advice on the JWP seed because I don't want to influence your pricing too much and I don't know how much time/effort that one takes to collect and process.
JWP is definitely harder to obtain. Yours would probably be one of very few sources in Australia though I do know of a few trees growing in Tassie gardens. Not sure that the germination factor is particularly relevant, unless it is actually the see that's at fault. It may become a factor when only 1 in 20 germinate which would make the seedling worth $10 each before they grow.
Otherwise any commodity is only worth what people are willing to pay for it. If you end up with few buyers and a lot of product left that probably means the prices are high. If it takes more to collect, process and distribute than you make (allow for waste and leftover product) then either prices are too low or there's not sufficient market to continue the enterprise.

Ginkgos are dioecious so completely separate male and female trees. Because the fruit is so smelly most nurseries only sell male clones so very few ginkgos are females capable of producing fruit.
Not sure if your Ginkgo source is Ballarat but when I collected seed there it still took some time to pick up a quantity of fruit from under the trees. The tree in Melbourne Botanic garden is well known so others collect the seed and it is even more difficult to get seed there - I think ginkgo seed is used in Asian traditional medicine and as a food so others are interested, but not to grow it. I believe there's a female ginkgo somewhere at Melbourne uni but I have not checked that one.

Sounds like you have processing fruits to obtain seed so won't need tips there.

I prefer paper packaging for seed, just in case it is still not quite dry when mould can become a real problem. Most commercial suppliers have switched to the easier and more secure plastic bags. Plastic should be OK if you've dried the seed well as most buyers will sow seed soon after receiving it. If they choose to store in plastic that's up to them.
Plain 'wages' envelopes are available at most office suppliers for around $11 for 50 if you want paper packets and I've seen printed 'seed' envelopes for around half that price online. Otherwise reused bags would be suitable.

Last year's prices on the JWP seemed to fit okay, sold virtually all of them but that doesn't mean there is the same demand again this year without even touching on what has appeared to be a germination issue, or perhaps more likely a period of trial needed to understand the best process to germinate them well. As you say people are either happy to pay the price or not and that dictates whether my costs of travel and time to collect are worth it.

My source of female Ginkgo isn't one of the ones you've listed there but would still require travel and time to collect and process as you say, so i again it needs to make some sense for me to do it. I think how bad the fruit smells would put a lot of people off doing it, and i think it's a great shame since Ginkgo make phenomenal bonsai in their own style and way, and the grafts of the cultivars are invariably a horror show, so perhaps if it were easier to access seeds people might give them more of a chance?

I am of the same opinion that paper is the better alternative for postage, especially interstate where time is longer, that's why i went with paper bags in regular letter envelopes last time, so i will continue this again. I have been reading up on Ume seed collection and storage ahead of doing my trials on the ones from my garden, and it seems that even drying them out for a length of time can affect viability, so i need to continue reading up more to see if there is further evidence of that before i start collecting Ume seed hopefully next year with a view to posting them

[TimS]

From the pics Ryceman3 put up the viability on the JWP seeds looked a bit sketchy. In my opinion it would be best to see what kind of germination ratios people come up with from that seed before selling more.

Of course if you crack a dozen open and all have good seed the above goes out the window. Maybe the better question is whether people are willing to pay for the JWP knowing they may get less than 50% germination. The trees I collected mine from (3 trees, 1 spot) opened all cones at the same time so mature cones would be every second year.

Regarding the ginko, you can just leave them to rot outside, the critters wont touch them with flesh attached. Give them a float test before selling, the good ones sink instantly, the floaters are empty.

Yep that is exactly what has prompted me to rethink collecting and offering the JWP again this year was the results from Ryan's white pine experiment. I am somewhat buoyed by your findings about the seedcoat being a potential inhibitor, but i would like to see further confirmation that it isn't a seed quality/ viability issue or understanding the process for somewhat reliable germination before feeling confident that it is something i can supply as a quality product to people.

In collecting seed my goal is to get more people starting growing future material for bonsai, since that's something i struggle to find the enthusiasm for and space to do at home for myself. I don't want collect heaps and heaps of seed to be keeping a store of seeds losing viability over time just to have them available if people wanted them. I'd like people to be able to trust that they are getting fresh, reliable quality seed from me and not just a cross fingers and hope situation.

I shall think further, i might come up with a bit of a deal for the JWP for those that do want to take a punt on them, but not actually do a large-scale collection like i did last time until more is understood. I am suspecting they may need a significant period of cold stratification (3 months+) from my reading to emulate their natural environmental conditions but information seems quite limited, and from those locally who i've spoken to who have seed grown JWP it seems to be a similar situation of low germination rates.

[Deniss]

Hi interested in
Japanese Maples

Kashima Mikawa Coral Bark Arakawa

30 seeds each
Thanks

[TimS]

Hi interested in
Japanese Maples

Kashima Mikawa Coral Bark Arakawa

30 seeds each
Thanks

No worries, exact numbers of availability for Maples will be confirmed later as they develop and i can be sure of what I'll get, but you're on the list

[treeman]

Hi Tim,
I would be interested in some of the Acer Kashima and the Acer Arakawa when the time comes.

thanks
Rob

Arakawa gives a rather low percentage of corky barked seedlings in my experience. About 10-15%. But still worth trying.

[treeman]

Of course if you crack a dozen open and all have good seed the above goes out the window. Maybe the better question is whether people are willing to pay for the JWP knowing they may get less than 50% germination. The trees I collected mine from (3 trees, 1 spot) opened all cones at the same time so mature cones would be every second year.

Japanese white pine is very easy from seed if they are stratified cold for 3 months at 4C but you will only get good seed if they are properly pollinated and preferably by a different cultivar.

[AdamBonz]

Hi Tim,

I would be interested in 20 Acer palamtum arakawa and 30 kashima seeds.

Thanks.

[TimS]

Hi Tim,

I would be interested in 20 Acer palamtum arakawa and 30 kashima seeds.

Thanks.

THanks Adam, i've put down your request on the spreadsheet and i'll confirm numbers with you at collection time later in the year

Cheers

Tim

[jamesocallaghan]

Hi Tim , im interested in your seeds you may have, arakawa, milkawa, kashima, if and when available 20 of each

Regards James

[TimS]

Hi Tim , im interested in your seeds you may have, arakawa, milkawa, kashima, if and when available 20 of each

Regards James

Copy that, i've put you down in the spredsheet as well, and as the time comes i'll confirm numbers with you

[Truth]

This is a very interesting idea, especially regarding the maple seeds. As we all know, palmatum don't go "true" from seed so essentially these will all be F1 hybrids. Anecdotally the MrMaple nursery in South Carolina USA believe that the most interesting new trees with unique characteristics start from F2 hybrids. I wonder if by breeding common bonsai cultivars over generations we'll start to see new trees more adept to Australian conditions.

I know I'll certainly be trying this as a long term project with my own Arakawa, Kashima, Seigen etc trees
However for the best effect you would realistically need industrial quantities.

Furthermore the amount of genetic variability between the simple "mountain maple" is enormous. I know I've certainly seen some that would make for nicer bonsai and landscape trees than other. Perhaps we could pool together and create an "ausbonsai selection"

[shibui]

This is a very interesting idea, especially regarding the maple seeds. As we all know, palmatum don't go "true" from seed so essentially these will all be F1 hybrids. Anecdotally the MrMaple nursery in South Carolina USA believe that the most interesting new trees with unique characteristics start from F2 hybrids.

Not sure if you understand what F1 , F2, etc mean. Or maybe I am not understanding the point of that statement. Maybe it's me that has misunderstood the genetic filial system?
Almost all named JM cultivar will be an F1 hybrid already. Many will be much further down the hybridisation path than F1 as they have been grown and selected over thousands of years now but without the breeding to establish stable breeding lines. The way I understand genetic terms, F1, etc probably doesn't even apply easily to JM breeding as they are almost always the result of uncontrolled pollination.
Seedlings from 'plain' JM could possibly be F1 but how can we tell if that seed is outcrossed or selfed? Is any variation in traits the result of hybridisation or just the natural genetic variability of JM species?
How can you tell if any seed collected from a JM cultivar is outcrossed (and with which other cultivar) or self pollinated?
The reality with JM breeding is random chance and selection of factors that interest the grower.

We can certainly embark on a breeding program to select for certain traits and I suspect Aussie gardeners have already been unconsciously selecting for hardiness to local conditions for years. I know of some Brisbane growers who get seed from me with the aim of treating the seedlings tough so they only keep the seedlings that are most hardy to sub-tropical conditions.